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jackmcknight
Dodge Dakota
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3/20/2009
08:51:43
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 Subject: TB to carb.
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Ok gen 1 here we go again. Iam wanting to change from TB to carb. iam already running msd ing.Do you know for sure what all i have to change. Iam still wanting to keep the computer to run everthing else. Iam driving a 89 Shelby Dakota with a stroker motor.Everbody says its easy but nobody know how for sure.What about fuel pressure? I know go to a reg. but will that cause the fuel pump to burn out even with the return line?This is one of the rumors ive heard
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STS
Dodge Dakota
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3/20/2009
13:37:18
|  RE: TB to carb.
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.
Ok so your running out a bored out 318? I think thats what they had in the Shelby Dakota.
It might be a bit easier to find a carbureted 4bbl engine and boost it up to specs (thats what I would have done) than swap my throttle body fuel injection.
So, I'm thinking this would be in reverse from swapping carb in for a TBI.
For one thing you might need a fuel pump that is compatible for a carp system. (find them in the bone yard) and take off the ECM because you going to a pure mechanical fuel injection.
Wish I could add more to this, But this is something I never done before.
But if I'm correct, TBI is not that much different from a carb, it just more precise
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/21/2009
16:30:55
| RE: TB to carb.
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Huh. This is weird. I coulda sworn I posted a reply to this but it isn't here now. I'll get back to this later. I'm not sure exactly how the MSD ties in since I haven't actually dealt with it, but it can't be that bad. One thing Mopar does caution against is using wrong coil. They suggest P4120889 (I suspect a re-badged MSD coil) or Accel's coil, P3690560. They state that stock and other coils do not function properly with MSD apps.
The fuel pump will last just as long as it would with the fuel injection.
STS: The Shelby had stock 318's just like the '89 Dodge D150 pickup. Nothing special. The only HP improver was in the form of the electric fans. Also, carburetion is not the same as pure mechanical fuel injection.
The install info is here, your specific app starts around page 4:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:V2qHktSs0J0J:www.mymopar.com/downloads/elecignconv.pdf+Mopar+Performance+ignition+swap&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
You will also be able to open plug gaps to 50-60 thou.
If you're not starting with the pre-packaged kit it should be easy enough to collect what you need from any similarly ignitioned junker (and there are thousands of them).
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jacksdodges
GenI
3/23/2009
08:14:23
| RE: TB to carb.
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no it not a 318 bored out it a 340 bored and stroked to a 418.Ive been running it like this for about 2 years, I guess iam ready to go a carb.
My thing is i want to keep my compurter to run everthing else. Thanks gen 1 ill read the artical you posted. thanks/
jack mcknight
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STS
Dodge Dakota
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3/23/2009
13:00:16
| RE: TB to carb.
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I meant a "318" in the Shelby. But the TBI is somthing "like a carb set up" its mechanical to keep the engine running smoothly.
Man, never would have guessed it was a 340. I thought all of them had carbs anyway.
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Joe C.
Dodge Dakota
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3/23/2009
17:27:17
| RE: TB to carb.
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STS you ignorant fool. No stroked out 318 in shelby.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/24/2009
09:19:05
| RE: TB to carb.
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The TBI you speak of (STS) is basically an electronic carburetor. Mechanical fuel injection is what diesels have, and notable examples like the 60's era Corvette had (optional) true mechanical fuel injection for a gasoline-powered engine.
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STS
Dodge Dakota
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3/24/2009
14:13:09
| RE: TB to carb.
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thanks gen1dak.
I bet the troll that posted under Joe.C didn't even know that. Nice try Gerrick!
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jacksdodges
GenI
3/26/2009
12:44:34
|  RE: TB to carb.
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I couldnt find anything like I was looking for.I have the Mopar Perf cat. Its not the same as going from points to elec. dist.If i wire it up like that where will the computer gets it power from??
jack mcknight
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/26/2009
19:56:28
| RE: TB to carb.
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You have to scroll down to the instructions for your application. The computer isn't really messed with that much. You do tie in the new ignition into the MIF. You will need a schematic of your wiring to locate which wires they're talking about. It's in even those Haynes manuals. Whatyou're faced with is interpreting the info so it applies to your ignition choice.
REPLACING LOGIC COMPUTER CONTROLLED IGNITION (w/FUEL INJECTION):
PAGE 4 of 10
NOTE: THE CHRYSLER FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM REQUIRES A SIGNAL GENERATED BY THE ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT DISTRIBUTOR. TO
INSTALL THIS KIT, THE FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM MUST BE ELIMINATED. THIS IGNITION KIT WILL NOT OPERATE THE FUEL INJECTION
SYSTEM USED ON CHRYSLER CORPORATION VEHICLES.
Additional Tools Required: Electric drill, wire cutter/stripper, 12 volt test light, roll of 14 gauge electrical wire, one 14 gauge Scotchlok electrical
connectors, one 14 gauge round eyelet electrical connector, one 14 gauge female spade electrical connector, one 12 gauge female spade electrical
connector, electrical tape.
1. Choose a suitable location for the Electronic Control Unit (ECU). The ECU must be bolted down, make sure the mounting location selected is a flat
surface and can be drilled through. The ECU should be located away from the exhaust system, in the coolest place possible. Recommended locations
are: the corners of the firewall; the inner fenderwell; the radiator support panel/grill area; or under the dashboard, inside the car.
2. Using the new wiring harness provided with the ignition kit, connect the two wire distributor wiring plug into the similar plug on the distributor. Place the
five wire ECU plug at the location chosen for mounting the ECU. Make sure the new wiring harness can be routed from the distributor to the ECU while
avoiding exhaust parts and sharp edges. Try to follow the cars existing wiring harness, if possible.
3. Once it is confirmed that the wiring harness will reach the location, use the ECU as a guide and mark the bolt holes on each side of the ECU.
4. The attaching hardware to mount the ECU must be provided. It is not included in the kit. Either nuts and bolts or sheet metal screws can be used. If
using sheet metal screws, make sure the sharp points will not damage or contact anything on the opposite side of the mounting location. If using nuts
and bolts, make sure the nuts can be reached on the opposite side of the mounting location to tighten them. Drill holes to mount the ECU, making sure
they are the correct size for the bolts or screws being used. Mount the ECU and tighten securely.
5. Connect the five way plug to the ECU and route the distributor wires so they will be protected from harm. If possible, run them through existing looms
and/or use plastic ties to secure them to the existing wiring harness.
6. Remove all the wires connected to the ignition coil. All wires are to be left disconnected. They should be covered with electrical tape and secured to
prevent grounding. They will not be used.
7. Identify the three loose wires of the wiring harness. There will be a black wire (with a yellow tracer or line), a blue wire (with a yellow tracer) and a
green wire (with a red tracer).
Page 6
8. The green wire is not used and should be cut off. On the newer harnesses, this un-used wire is omitted.
9. The black wire should be routed to the negative side of the ignition coil. Avoid the exhaust manifolds and sharp edges. Follow the car's existing wiring
harness, if possible. Once suitably routed to the coil, cut the black wire to remove any excess. Strip the insulation off the last 1/4 inch of the wire. Crimp
the round eyelet provided in the ignition kit to the exposed wire. Attach the black wire to the negative side of the ignition coil.
10. Choose a location to mount the ballast resistor.
11. The attaching hardware to mount the new ballast resistor must be provided. It is not included in the kit. Either a nut and bolt or a sheet metal screw
can be used. If using a sheet metal screw, make sure the sharp point will not damage or contact anything on the other side of the mounting location. If
using a nut and bolt, make sure the nut can be reached on the opposite side of the mounting location to tighten it. Drill a hole to mount the ballast
resistor, making sure the hole is the correct size for the bolt or screw being used. Mount the ballast resistor and tighten. Do not over tighten the resistor
or the porcelain may crack.
12. Route the blue wire to the new ballast resistor. Avoid the exhaust manifolds and sharp edges. Follow existing wiring harnesses, if possible. Do not
cut the blue wire at this time.
13. Locate the main ignition feed, or MIF, as it comes through the firewall at the master disconnect connector. Refer to the chart on page 8 and the
connectors shown on page 9 to determine the style of master disconnect connector and the location of the MIF on the vehicle being modified.
14. Temporarily reconnect the negative battery cable. Turn the ignition key to the "on" position. Do not turn to the "start" position. Use a 12 volt tester to
verify that the MIF found in step #13 has power when the key is in the "on" position and has no power when the key is in the "off" position.
15. Turn the ignition key off and disconnect the negative battery cable.
16. Use 14 gauge wire and splice into the MIF. Do not cut the MIF. A splice must be made, as the MIF must still power many other under hood functions.
An electrical connector with the trad-marked name Scotchlok is very useful. Splice or Scotchlok the 14 gauge wire to the MIF, then securely wrap the
splice with electrical tape to seal out moisture and prevent grounding.
17. Route the spliced 14 gauge wire to the new ballast resistor, where blue wire of the new wiring harness was previously routed.
18. Allow 3 inches of extra wire for engine movement, then cut off both the blue wire and the new wire spliced into the MIF. Strip 1/4 inch of the
insulation from both wires. Place BOTH of the stripped wires into ONE of the 12 gauge female spade connectors and crimp securely. Wrap the
connection with electrical tape.
19. Route a 14 gauge wire from the positive side of the ignition coil to the ballast resistor. Avoid the exhaust manifolds and sharp edges. Follow existing
wiring harnesses, if possible. Leave plenty of extra wire and cut off the new wire by the ballast resistor. On the end of the new wire by the ignition coil,
strip the insulation from 1/4 inch of the new wire. Crimp the 14 gauge round eyelet onto the new wire and connect it to the positive side of the coil. On
the other end, strip 1/4 inch of insulation and crimp a 14 gauge female spade connector onto the new coil wire. Wrap the connections with electrical
tape.
20. Plug the terminal containing the blue wire from the new harness and the MIF splice wire into one end of the new ballast resistor.
21. Plug the new coil wire into the opposite end of the ballast resistor.
22. Proceed to "Basic Start Up and Adjustment"
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jackmcknight
Dodge Dakota
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3/27/2009
14:58:10
| RE: TB to carb.
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Message:
Hey Gen 1 thanks . When there talking about a kit , is that the kit that they sell to convert over from points to elec.ing.?? I think ive about got it now thanks again. let you know how it works.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/28/2009
10:52:25
| RE: TB to carb.
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Message:
The kit is the Mopar Performance ignition package they sell which includes a quick advance electronic distributor, ballast resistor, orange box ecu and wiring. It works for point to electronic conversion, upgrade from stock electronics, or retrofit of the electronics in a computer-controlled fuel injected unit. Looks like this:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mope.html
Good luck.
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Tom Byrne
Dodge Dakota
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3/29/2009
13:28:58
| RE: TB to carb.
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"The TBI you speak of (STS) is basically an electronic carburetor. Mechanical fuel injection is what diesels have, and notable examples like the 60's era Corvette had (optional) true mechanical fuel injection for a gasoline-powered engine."
Wrong! An electronic carburetor is just that, a crburetor with servos operatd by a computer. I.E. the Holley 6520. TBI is an electronic version of old 1940s (aircraft) - to 1970s mechanical fuel injection. True mechanical fuel injection can be troublesome to maintian efficiency. Ask any fuelie Vette owner.
TBI is electronic fuel injection with fuel injectors (1 to 4 depending on the vehicle) spraying fuel continuously down the throat of the throttle body. Fuel metering is done electronically, much in the same way as multi-port injection. TBI IS fuel injection, just a less sophisticated version.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/29/2009
21:20:30
| RE: TB to carb.
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Message:
WRONG! They do not spray continuously.Eeeediot.
My reference to TBI being basically an electronic carburetor is very correct if you put one next to a carb and compare. It is what you get when you graft fuel injectors in place of venturis. The TBI even looks like a carb. Sorry if, well no, I'm not sorry that I was speaking over your head.
Here's a little quote from Wikipedia....as if that'll help. LOL!
The term Mechanical when applied to fuel injection is used to indicate that metering functions of the fuel injection -how the correct amount of fuel for any given situation is determined and delivered- is not achieved electronically but rather through mechanical means alone. All the components in both 'mechanical' or Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) systems that deliver the fuel in to the engine -the pumps, plumbing, valves, injectors- are mechanical in operation. The difference being that in EFI systems the injectors are switched on and off electronically by the EFI control electronics. This ability to control the injectors electronically allows far more variation in when and how the fuel is injected.
Hence, my reference to the "electronic carburetor".
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Tom Byrne
Dodge Dakota
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3/30/2009
10:19:58
| RE: TB to carb.
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They do spray continuously. They are not sequentilally timed. Stop with the Eeediot crap.
In TBI system the injecors spray continously, but the flow is adjusted by the computer based on the throttle position and info from the 02 sensor. In a sequential system, the injectors are turned on and off for each cylinder as needed. If one listens closely, one can here them click. There is no on and off pulsing on a TBI system as the injector(s) insid eteh TB supply all cylinders.
Wikipedia should have said Sequential Eletcronic Fule Injection. All FI systems controlled by a computer are Electronic. Could Wikipedia be incorrect? ;)
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/30/2009
22:22:47
| RE: TB to carb.
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Message:
You've obviously never had the air cleaner off when a TBI unit was operating. If you had, you would know that they do not spray continuously. You can hear it. At lower rpm, you can even see it. Now, do us all a favor and actually get some grease under your nails (earn it) before you go off and debate me or anyone else who actually has been there and done that.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/30/2009
22:33:07
| RE: TB to carb.
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Sequential? Waitaminnit. Methinks I've found a Chevy troll.
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Tom Byrne
Dodge Dakota
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3/31/2009
07:47:53
| RE: TB to carb.
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Had the air cleaner off this weekend and I saw two injectors spraying fule at idle. No timed pulses there. Are you saying that two injectors pulse to match the timed needs of eight cylinders.
No Chevy troll here.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/31/2009
11:08:41
| RE: TB to carb.
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The injector(s) do pulse to meet the needs of the engine. Hence, the term "pulse width." The injectors are capable of opening and closing several times per second. It is actually easier to hear the clicking of a multi-point injection systen because there are more injectors and each feeds a single cylinder. Compare a V8 with a 2-injector TBI clicking along simultaneously, as opposed to 8 individual injectors firing in sequence. As rpm increases, the TBI rapidly appears to be spraying constantly as the two injectors are firing beyond our visual capabilities, but you should still be able to hear it until the rpms get a little higher. Think of it like watching a hummingbird's wings, or comparing a 2 cylinder to a V8. Both may run a 5,000 rpm, but the 2-cylinder will be firing several times the rate of the V8 at the same engine speed. On multi-point systems, the engine would need to be running several times faster for the individual injector pulse rate to match what the two injectors in the TBI have to do.
If your TBI is really spraying without pulses, your injectors are stuck open.
This link has a very straight-forward explanation of the basics. Instead of going back-and-forth, go there and see for yourself:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-injection.htm
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Tom Byrne
Dodge Dakota
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3/31/2009
16:10:58
| RE: TB to carb.
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I am not saying that they to not pulse, period, but that they are not timed as with a multi-port system. On a TBI, the pulsations are usually dampened to smoothe it the flow. You are correct that the speed of the pulses with engine RPM, not timed with the cylinders. I guess I was not clear enough. What I am saying is that when one looks dopwn the throat at idle, one sees a near steady stream of atomized fuel.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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3/31/2009
22:31:21
| RE: TB to carb.
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I never claimed they were timed like a multi-port system. Someone decided to hi-jack the thread when I made reference to the "electronic carburetor" and how a true throttle body injector would be the heir-apparent to the term.
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