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shatto
Dodge Dakota
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11/22/2008
11:57:20
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 Subject: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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From The Clark Howard Show;
Excerpts From Clark's Shows: Audio & Technology
Oct 14, 2008 -- Highlighting the inefficiency of American automakers
Honda is the envy of the manufacturing world for the flexibility and efficiency of their plants.
Here's a question for you: How long does it take the Japanese automaker to go from making, say, an SUV to a different model of car -- on the same line in the same assembly plant? A stunning 5 minutes, according to a Wall Street Journal report. And how much does it cost? Absolutely nothing, thanks to the use of modular robots that can be quickly adapted.
By comparison, it takes Ford a whopping 13 months and a staggering $75 million to make a similar change at one plant. That's what Detroit is up against. We taxpayers are going to be asked to keep the Big 3 Motown automakers in business in the coming months. But in the free market, people always choose to buy from the most efficient producers.
Until the Big 3 can get creative solutions like Honda, it won't matter how much money we throw at them.
_________________
Who is shatto?
98 Dakota 3.9 automatic, long bed.
Retired with broken A/C, July 2008.
623,000 miles.
On original engine and transmission, using Amsoil by-pass filters and lubrication.
Bet I could have passed 700.......
+Everybody knows something you don't know.
+Truth does not need to be 'balanced' and it ain't caused by voting or consensus or polls or yelling louder or silencing someone.
+Artists prove truth can be in forms you don't understand.
Low-Risk Option Trader
Retired Pro-Hunter featured in; 'African Hunter', by James R. Mellon III. and listed in; Rowland Ward's Records of Big Game.
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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11/23/2008
14:05:27
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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shatto is a figment of someones imagination.
A big reason why "detroit" sucks is unions. At least that is a big factor for GM. I haven't taken time nor wanted to make the will to investigate ford or chrysler.
unskilled delco employees were paid over $30/hr. That's unsustainable. Sure everyone needs paid, but come on. someone who has no skills making more money than people who have a valuable skill? UPS is advertising driver helpers for the holiday season here in ATL (corporate HQ is located here) for $8.50/hr.
The new honda civic plant in Indiana just opened. I think the pay is around 15/hr for the unskilled labor. If i recall right, my brother told me they had 10-15x as many applicants as they had positions.
no wonder honda is making money (at least losing less money than other manufacturers). it's not because their cars are so much better qaulity, it's because they make a bigger profit on them. I will put my old 95 dakota, my current 02 dakota or my current 08 avenger up against any other make/model for reliability. I still have yet to see a honda suv or truck at my favorite NFS,NPS,GA DNR lands. Maybe honda owners don't appreciate the outdoors. Maybe they aren't capable of the rough terrain. I see toyota's and nissans. Toyota is chasing down GM in car sales and running with dodge in truck sales (capability - horsepower, towing, etc).
Maybe bankruptcy is the best thing that can happen for GM. If they file, maybe they can force the unions to accept pay cuts and be more inline with the rest of the industry.
- Dan M
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dakota49
Gen I
11/23/2008
20:50:56
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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One thing that surprises me, is everyone seems to think the uoions are the problem, but who agreed to such high pay in the first place? Does anyone know why the management at the big 3 were so willing to sign such agreements?
Just think, labor will never make more than management, if they give labor (unions) a pay raise then they are giving themselves a pay raise, plus if they give labor more benfits, they get even better benfits, so where is the incentive to reject those pay increases?
Just something to think about.
Good Day
Dakota49
dakota49
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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11/23/2008
22:12:15
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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The unions threatened to stike and even did strike. The unions are to blame for that.
I agree, there needs to be some adjustment to upper management pay and incentives. If the company sucks and looses billions, upper management should not get multimillion bonuses.
That's part of the government hangup for bailing out auto industry...how will the money be used?
Does honda, toyota and nissan have a union?
- Dan M
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Kowalski
GenIII
11/24/2008
13:56:44
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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There is much more involved in this than union labor; although I can see where you guys would be jealous of their pay. Heck, I'd love to make what they are making. But labor only accounts for 10-15% of the price of a new vehicle. Even if they got all the labor for free, they'd still have trouble moving vehicles in this economy; so we'll need to look much deeper than that to find the real problems in Detroit. One is high mark up - they hit us (those who buy pick ups) for a lot more profit than most other vehicles. They also need to be more responsive to market changes; and should be planning for better eficiency and fuel economy. A case in point would be as simple as the front ends in our 4x4 Daks - why not manual hubs, so we don't have to be wasting energy through the front drivetrain while in 2WD ? It's really not the unions who are to blame for Detroit's troubles; I think that's often cleverly thrown out by management to deflect attention from the outrageous CEO pay packages. Then the union guys become easy scapegoat targets for those who make less, but don't think this all the way through.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2008
14:41:19
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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personally, the government and upper mgmt both had a hand in it. Upper management not paying attention to a changing market. they just wanted more profit so they kept producing more SUV's and Trucks, their most profitable commodities instead of developing more efficient or alternative fuel vehicles(my favorite CNG). they(upper mgmt) also, with help from our own government, decided it would be more profitable to build factories overseas and lay off the very people buying their product.
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dakota49
Gen I
11/24/2008
20:49:46
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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Dan M, I don't think Honda, Toyota, or Nisson are unionized. I heard on the news just last Friday that the cost per hour per employee for the big 3 is just over $73 an hour,
for Honda and Toyota, its just over $44 an hour, plus the guy in charge at Honda only gets about $1,000,000 a year that's with bonus.
So I guess Honda, Toyota, ect. have got something figured out.
Good Day
Dakota49
dakota49
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2008
22:08:18
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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kowalski
you are correct about trucks. I looked at buying a new ram a few months back. Several local dealers were offering 50% of MSRP (dealer keeps rebates). This was for 2008 before 09's hit the floors. I had several salesmen tell me that rams had a higher markup than any other vehicle on the lot.
The dealers only offered me 5,000 trade on my 02 quad cab 4x4 4.7L V8 with 92k miles. I have more than 5,000 in aftermarket parts (new lights front and rear, etc) and accessories (tool box, skid plates, leer sheel, etc) as well as new replacement parts (shocks, tires, sensors, etc)
In 3 dealers not 1 had a hemi 4x4 quad cab in stock. all 4x4s had 4.7L. I couldn't justify a bank note for the same engine (09 has 300hp 4.7L) in a bigger frame and losing my @$$ on my current 02 which has nothing wrong. One dealer tried to talk me into a 2500 diesel. with 50% off my cost would be around 28k +tax +tag +dealer fees. LOL
a friend at work told me that nissan has a plant in mississippi that makes 8 differnet models.
there definately needs to be some blame from the top. Dodge is really only pushing the ram truck (their #1 money maker). I guess they can't push their cars beacuse they don't get that great of fuel economy compared to other vehicles. I bought my avenger because i like the way it looks and the lifetime power train warranty. I've owned it for just over a year now and it's still as fun to drive as the say i bought it.
flaws everywhere.
- Dan M
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Kowalski
GenIII
11/25/2008
17:31:56
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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dan m - Wow ! Are you sure MSRP on a 2500 diesel is $56,000 ? That's what I get crunching your numbers. Might want to recheck your math ?
50% off MSRP is half price. If I could get an honest 50% off MSRP, I'd be driving a new truck...
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2008
22:22:46
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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Kowalski i may have over stated the price by a 1000 or 1500
It was larmie quad cab 4x4 with many options. A quad cab 2500 is 41,600 and add 6100 for cummins engine (47,700). Add 6% sales tax and i'm at over 51,000 with nothing added in. A nicely equipped 2500 is around 53k msrp.
i maybe thinking they added fees and tax in to get 28k with 50% discount.
Of course at the time diesel was over $5/gallon here and 87 was around $4.20 i think.
None of the 3 dealers that offered the 50% off (dealer keeps rebates) had a quad cab 4x4 with a 5.7L hemi in stock. The only 4x4s were 4.7 flex or 4.7 gas only. I wasn't willing to make such a big monthly bank note on a diesel or the same 4.7 V8 as in my dakota (had the 08's offered the new 300 hp version of the 4.7, i would have considered it more).
a friend owns a 3500 (not a dully) ram with cummins turbo diesel with banks 6 gun and banks exhaust and that thing hauls @$$. It tows his front end loader way easier than his tandem axle dump truck.
For now i'm keeping my ole trusty 02 dakota QC 4x4 - in fact I've recently added 400 watts of off road light :)
- Dan M
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Kowalski
GenIII
11/28/2008
12:32:59
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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Ouch ! That's as much as it cost me to build my house 20 years ago.
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STS
Dodge Dakota
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12/01/2008
14:02:01
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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Hey Dan M, I'll just keep that Dakota untill the wheels fall off.
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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12/01/2008
19:09:10
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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STS I am!
Considering all the time and parts I've added.. it's about the way I want it!
- Dan M
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Joe.C
Dodge Dakota
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12/02/2008
16:45:40
|  RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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My Gen2 Dakota use one of the toughest trucks I drove. That was untill the Water pump went out including all the other leaks that came with it.
But o well, theres always the newer C body Dakota. You can't beat the 04 Dakotas.
5 speed auto
4x4
3.92 gear
quad cad
Magnaflow exhaust
"
a friend owns a 3500 (not a dully) ram with cummins turbo diesel with banks 6 gun and banks exhaust and that thing hauls @$$. It tows his front end loader way easier than his tandem axle dump truck."
Hey Dan
If your friend drives a GMC dumptruck I'll believe that. I think some of the class 6 trucks came with either LBZ Duramax or a 8100 gas guzzeling big block.
But I would recomend the newer Ram 5500 for towing something that heavy. I think you still get up to 650 ftbls of torque with the 6.7 litre.
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Kowalski
GenIII
12/02/2008
17:39:34
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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There is no such thing as a C body Dakota. A mopar C body is a large old car; for example, a Polaris.
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Kowalski
GenIII
12/02/2008
18:27:53
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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Oops. That should be Polara. 30-40 years ago, and often 383 or 440 motor. But not a designation for a Dakota.
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AND?
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2008
13:58:37
|  RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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Wrong, the C was also given to the older Dodge trucks.
1954-1956
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/history/segment7.html
Also if you want to judge a car or truck by the body style, then technically you could say; A,b,C ect.
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not wrong
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2008
17:33:06
|  RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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He said it wasn't a designation for a Dakota.
You have not shown otherwise.
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Im right
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2008
16:21:17
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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The c letter was also given to the dodge truck line up also!!!
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2008
19:17:55
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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I see where UAW is now wanting to re-negotiate contracts...
- Dan M
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Kowalski
GenIII
12/06/2008
08:07:07
| RE: Why Detroit SUCKS!
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For "And?", and "I'm right" - why don't you just take ownership of the fact that you are wrong ? After all, we've had this discussion before, so you should be aware of that. The link to the 50's trucks shows it was called C series, not C body. There is no C body Dakota, or any C body Dodge truck for that matter. I believe you are omitting a letter in the designation, you mean CN prhaps ? A, B, C, and E body refer specifically to different body sizes of the muscle car era. You can insist on your omissions and distortions as much as you like, but that will not change the fact that there has never been a C body Dakota.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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