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mike m
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2007
14:32:44
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 Subject: rotors bad after 10k
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i am getting that foot massage from my rotors that are only 10k old. i bought them for $25 each at pep boys. is it absolutely neccessary to change the pads when changing the rotors?
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1hotkadota
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2007
15:17:54
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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yes.
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hey
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2007
16:12:54
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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hate to say it but
you get what you pay for
my factory rotors went just over 100,000 miles
stopping power and stopping in general isnt a place to save a few bucks
it could some day mean yours or some one else life
spend the few extra and get quality rotors
if not factory replacements
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1hotkadota
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2007
16:36:00
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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I got drilled rotors and cermaic pads off of e-bay for $141 shipped to my door.
Do the brake change yourself and you'll save a lot of money and you don't have to worry about some dipshnit at Pepboys who can't spell car messing it up
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jpconard
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2007
16:45:39
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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O'Reilly has quality rotors with lifetime warantee (Wagner I think), also quality Ceramic pads (also lifetime). Also they beat Autozone price.
Yes I used the cheapest $20-$25 rotors several times, lucky to get 1 yr. roughly 20-25,000 miles out of them and usually warped by half that time.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2007
17:27:00
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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You don't need to buy new pads to go with the new rotors. Sand the old pads flat to remove any glaze, then wipe clean with a dry cloth.
Your rotors should have lasted a lot longer than 10K miles, even cheap ones. What's going on?
Drilled rotors will decrease brake effectiveness. And they don't last nearly as long as a solid rotor.
Ceramic pads may or may not increase brake power. Some do, and some don't.
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hey
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2007
21:20:51
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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hey its me again same "hey" that posted above
just thought of something after reading .boB's
response
ok yes the cheap rotors dont last very long but .boB is right even in my "school of hard knocks days"
15,000 - 20,000
ok so my thoughts
when you do your brakes next time yes invest in the good parts and
replace the caliper hoses!
if you have over 100,000 or close to it they do sometimes wear as to when you press the brake they swell up and hold the pressure quite awhile after you release the brake and will cause the brakes to drag
you most likely wont even feel it cause it happens so gradual over time
i have also seen this over looked alot of times when MPGs start to drop off a bit
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2007
02:19:25
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Drilled rotors increase brake effectiveness.
They also ventilate heat more effectively, which
reduces heat spikes under heavy braking, and
that reduces warping. The holes allow
superheated gases to escape much more
effectively, allowing the pads to maintain full
contact. On a solid rotor, you have reduced
pad contact as the hot air builds under the
pads, and pushes the pads away from the
rotors, reducing effectiveness. Pedal effort
goes up and effectiveness goes down as they
get hotter.
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2007
10:15:54
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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whatever pads and rotors you go with always remember to "bed in" the pads. if you do that you shouldn't have any problems. i have the original stock "crappy" rotors and @ 75k had to change the factory pads for the first time. because of money constraints i bought the el chepo pads. bedded them in and i have and never had any pulsating and the truck still stops like new if not better. maybe it's because of my QC's larger 11" rear drums, i don't know.
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eddy
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2007
11:40:34
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Not necessary but recemmended because it's almost the same labor. IF your pads are about to go right now it doesn't make sense to take the wheels off, replace the rotors, put everything back together, then put the truck back on jackstands or go back to the shop in another month for pads.
When you get new rotors and possibly pads, keep the following brands in mind:Bendix, Pro-Sto, and Raybestos.
On the front I have Bendix titaniummetallic 2 pads. After 15 thousand miles and over a year when I got my truck inspected the Monroe guy looked at my bendix pads and still said they were some of the thickest pads he's ever seen on a truck.
For rotors I got Raybestos in the front and I think Bendix or something like that in the rear. You don't need to go super-ultra exotic on a daily driver but Raybestos premiums or any other quality brand name along those lines will stand up to abuse and last for awhile.
Penny/Wise pound foolish. You thought you were saving quite a bit by going with 25 dollar pads at Pep Boys but add up the price of those, the price of the new ones youre about to get, and the price of either paying for the labor or using your own time to go under the truck and replace them again and was saving 50 bucks the first time around really worth it?
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2007
12:30:33
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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gen1dak, some one hasn't been doing their home work.
http://www.baer.com/technical/faq/index.php
According to Wilwood, "Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity."
According to Wilwood and Baer, drilling is purel for looks, and nothing else.
Brakes work by converting rotational energy to heat energy, via friction. More friction = more braking power. Friction is created mostly by contact between the pads and rotors. Bigger rotors and pads will improve braking effectivness by increasing the contact patch.
What happens when you drill holes in a solid rotor? You decrease the surface area. It's like saying, "I want better brakes, so I'll install a smaller rotor." Doesn't make sense.
My Wilwood racing brakes are not cross drilled. Baer Brakes also does not recommend cross drilled rotors for racing.
Also, read this article by Carroll Smith:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
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dude
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2007
13:19:57
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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drilled rotors = old technology
all thoses holes are starting points
for cracks to devellop (stress risers)
solid rotors with curved internal vanes
(stock rotors have straight vanes)
or even 'surface slotted' rotors (Power Slot)
offer more surface area and
are much better at dissapating heat.
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obio3
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2007
15:33:39
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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A little more insight on pads.... I had to replace my rotors at 25,000. The factory pads looked new so I reused them. I'm pushing 80,000 now and no sign of a problem. Went with NAPA's best rotors.
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Brake Guy
Dodge Dakota
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12/23/2007
20:49:50
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Hard pads are the problem. OEM's went to hard pads a while back because all the lazy pricks leasing vehicles didn't clean the rims or the whole car for that matter. Lots of vehicles came back off lease with front rims that were trashed; corroded, pitted, permanently stained. It's hard to sell a vehicle for full residual when the front rims look like crap.
Hard brake pads cured this because the pads hardly wore out over the life of the lease. If you figure most people don't go over their lease mileage limits, then most lease vehicles came back with lots of life in the brakes (and tires). That means no refurb costs for dealers. They can turn them right around and sell them.
What it means for you and me is after 60,000 miles of normal truck use, we have warped rotors because the hard pads generate too much heat for the cheap cast pig iron rotors. Switching to a softer pad will cure the rotor warping problem. Or you can switch to steel rotors, if you can find them. Cheap after market rotors are no worse than the cheap OEM crap. Believe me. I'm an expert on brakes, an SAE member and I worked for GM for 27 years.
On the topic of drilling rotors. The holes have nothing to do with cooling. They're there to vent hot gases away from between the surface for the rotor and the pad. Most guys go ape and put far too many holes in. A radiating curve pattern of alternating 2-3-2 holes works best. It doesn't decrease the rotor surface, contrary to what .bob said. On vehicles used for racing, with racing pads which are designed to deflagrate, the holes serve a purpose.
Race pads last only 1 race and give off a lot of gases during use. On street cars, holes serve no purpose and are just there to make the guy who did it feel like Ricky Road Racer. It's actually very dangerous to do anything to the surface of the rotor on newer street vehicles because of the very hard pads and the high heat they generate. Most guys have no clue how to machine the holes or how many to put in so at best it's done for looks.
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TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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12/23/2007
21:53:55
|  RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Then why do my stock brakes, all of them, rear drums, front rotors, pads, etc. still stop well after over 131,000 miles? ALL ORIGINAL, original fluid also!!!
I'll tell you why, 3 main reasons
1. I don't wait until the last milisecond to brake hard, when I know I have to stop anyway, as in a stop sign. P.S. I also stop all the way at stop signs.
2. I use my parking brake every time a park the truck. ( I have a manual tranny).
This keeps the rear 11inch drums always adjusted, taking work off the inferior front brakes!
3. Having a manual tranny, I do downshift, a little. My tach nevers go to 2000 rpm while downshifting.
01 Quad cab, SLT, 4.7, manual, trailer towing, tire and handling, etc., etc., and that's right, all original brakes, everything and over
131,000 miles.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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12/23/2007
21:54:42
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Simple and to the point....
Many higher performance brakes have holes drilled through them. This is known as cross-drilling and was originally done in the 1960s on racing cars. Brake pads will outgas and under use may create boundary layer of gas between the pad and the disc hurting braking performance. Cross-drilling was created to provide the gas someplace to escape. Although modern brake pads seldom suffer from outgassing problems, water residue may build up after a vehicle passes through a puddle and impede braking performance. For this reason, and for heat dissipation purposes, Cross Drilling is still used on some braking components, but is not favored for racing or other hard use as the holes are a source of stress cracks under severe conditions.
So much for homework.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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12/24/2007
05:16:47
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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gen1dak, I guess you didn't read the advice from Baer and Wilwood. They know a lot more about brakes than I do. And I suspect they know a lot more than you do.
Brake Guy, how can drilling holes not reduce brake surface area? You're removing material. For each hole, you subtract the area of the hole from the area of the brake surface. It's simple geometry.
Also, brakes designed for racing do not have holes in them. Again, check with Wilwood and Baer. Here's a picture of my Wilwood rotors designed for racing, sans holes: http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/bobcowan/Wilwood%20Brakes/?action=view¤t=FrontBeforeandAfter2.jpg
here's a picture of a NASCAR truck rotor. Note the solid surface. http://www.truckseries.com/photog/displayimage.php?album=301&pos=3
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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12/24/2007
05:56:41
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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somehow I missed this thread...
How did you come to the conclusion that the rotors were bad? Did you check them with straight edge and see warped spots? Did you measure thickness around the rotor?
I smoked (yep, burnt the rubber part of the piston) a cliper on the way home from work one day a couple months back (i posted about that). By the time I got my stock crappy scissor jack out and the front right tire off, my caliper/rotor cooled down to 195 degrees according to my laser infrared thermometer.
In the weeks leading to the failure i noticed the following:
after rain, brakes were touchy. Barely hit brakes and it would lock up and ABS would kick in for the first 2 or 3 brake attempts.
brakes would pulsate - would feel like i was taping brakes.
front end would shake when apply brakes.
when i checked, rotors were fine, pads were fine. then one day, bam! caliper wouldn't release all the way.
- Dan M
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choochoo
Dodge Dakota
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12/24/2007
21:27:13
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Two things:
1) Chrysler has been known for sticky calipers for decades and does nothing to fix it.
2) Always, always, always torque your wheel nuts to specs when replacing the wheel. Overtorqued or mismatch-torque nuts on the same wheel will warp the rotor when it heats up.
Question: How can you wear out your brakes in 10K? Only way I can see is to ride the brake. My 04 QC has half the pads left at 36K.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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12/24/2007
22:46:00
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Baer and Wilwood are selling something. Might make them just the least bit biased. My sources aren't selling anything. Note that it also stated the cooling holes would tend to crack in heavy duty/racing situations. There's more than one way to deal with warping. Drilled, ventilated..... the SRT Neon had a novel approach: solid rotors that are 1-inch thick.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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12/25/2007
16:42:48
| RE: rotors bad after 10k
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Baer and Wilwood sell both drilled and solid. Take your pick, they'll sell you whatever you want. They're not stupid. But if you read the FAQ, they'll tell which one to use in each situation. Drilled rotors are more expensive than solid. But they come right out and tell that the "cheaper" ones will perform better. And the expensive ones are for looks only. If all they were doing was selling you something, they'de only sell the most expensive, and then try to convince you that was best for all situations.
But, I can tell you're the type of guy who knows more about everything than the experts do. I love racing against guys like you, because they always lose. My solid rotor brakes will outperform your drilled any day of the week. That shaves a lot of seconds off every lap. So you go ahead and do whatever makes you happy.
BTW, did you actually go to the quoted web sites and read the FAQ's? Or did you just dismiss them without reading?
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