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Manny
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2007
09:23:51
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 Subject: More On Synthetic Oil
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This was posted in the Off Topic section by Gregg, but I thought it was important enough to put it here in the General section where people would see it.
Quoted from Duluth Diesel in TundraSolutions Forum.
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/839369-post13/
"Not all synthetic oils are the same. Mobile is a Group III synthetic, not a Group IV. Even though the label might say Full Synthetic, it doesn't mean the same thing for all oils. As for extended drain intervals, it is fine to run extended drain intervals with a Group IV synthetic oil if you couple it with better filtration. Not all oil filters are created equal either. Fram and other cheap oil filters don't filter much below 35 micron and are just cellulose (paper based) filters. Higher quality oil filters have synthetic media, not paper, and filter much better. AMSOIL Eao oil filters filter down to 15 micron, and their bypass filtration systems filter down to 2 micron at 98% efficiency.
There are many oils out there that call themselves synthetic, but not all are created equal, and that's important to know. You do get what you pay for. Group III synthetic oils only use about 12% synthetic base stocks. The rest is hyrdocracked petroleum base stocks. For major oil companies who have their money in crude oil refining, the word "synthetic" is merely a marketing term. It does not mean 100%, but just that a percentage of synthetic base stock goes into their product.
The oils that are commonly mentioned are Group II and Group III synthetics with the exception of Royal Purple, which is a Group V. AMSOIL is a Group IV synthetic (PAO) but also uses Group V Ester technology. It gives you the best of Group IV and Group V synthetics. Mobil 1 is a Group III synthetic. AMSOIL is a Group IV synthetic.
In the late 1990s, Castrol started selling an oil made from Group III base oil and called it SynTec Full Synthetic. Mobil sued Castrol, asserting that this oil was not synthetic, but simply a highly refined petroleum oil, and therefore it was false advertising to call it synthetic. In 1999, Mobil lost their lawsuit. It was decided that the word "synthetic" was a marketing term and referred to properties, not to production methods or ingredients. Castrol continues to make SynTec out of Group III base oils, that is highly purified mineral oil with most all of the cockroach bits removed.
Shortly after Mobil lost their lawsuit, most oil companies started reformulating their synthetic oils to use Group III base stocks instead of PAOs or diester stocks as their primary component. Most of the "synthetic oil" you can buy today is actually mostly made of this highly-distilled and purified dino-juice called Group III oil. Group III base oils cost about half as much as the synthetics. By using a blend of mostly Group III oils and a smaller amount of "true" synthetics, the oil companies can produce a product that has some of the same properties as the "true" synthetics, and nearly the same cost as the Group III oil. AMSOIL differs from Group III oils. As a Group IV oil, it uses 100% pure synthetic base stocks. This is why you can run it for longer intervals.
Synthetic oils were originally designed for the purpose of having a very pure base oil with excellent properties. By starting from scratch and building up your oil molecules from little pieces, you can pretty much guarantee that every molecule in the oil is just like every other molecule, and therefore the properties are exactly what you designed in, not compromised by impurities. Synthetics were thus originally a reaction to the relatively poor refining processes available from about 1930 to about 1990. The original synthetics were designed for the Army Air Force in WW II. They simply could not make their high- performance turbo-charged radial engines stay alive on the available motor oils of the time.
One process for making synthetic base oils is to start with a chemical called an olefin, and make new molecules by attaching them to each other in long chains, hence "poly." The primary advantage of Poly-Alpha-Olefin "PAO" base oil is that all the molecules in the base oil are pretty much identical, so it's easy to get the base oil to behave exactly as you like. PAOs are called Group IV base oils.
These PAO base oils have an enormous advantage over mineral base oils in low temperature performance and in resistance to oxidation, which is critical in keeping the oil from forming acids.
Another type of base oil is made from refined and processed esters and is called Group V. Esters start life as fatty acids in plants and animals, which are then chemically combined into esters, diesters, and polyesters. Group V base stocks are the most expensive of all to produce. However, the esters are polar molecules and have very significant solvent properties - an ester base oil all by itself will do a very decent job of keeping your engine clean. So, people who are serious about making a superior oil will usually mix some Group V oils into their base stock.
Oils that are strictly Group V ester oils tend to be better suited for high RPM, hot running, air cooled engines. 100% ester based oils are usually more expensive than Group IV oils, and don't have the longevity of PAO (Group IV) or PAO/Ester mixes oils. Group V oils perform very well in the shorter term. Oils like Royal Purple and Redline are Group V oils. They perform very well in race engines and in applications where drain intervals are factory spec or shorter, whereas Group IV oils are better suited for the long haul of extended intervals.
Whatever oil you choose, know what you are buying. Just because the jug says "synthetic" doesn't mean it is made from 100% pure synthetic base stocks."
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2007
09:40:56
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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That's pretty interesting. Especially the paragraph on drain intervals.
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brianj
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2007
11:17:23
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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yes many people can go longer on drain intervals, wich is true.
But these normal filters still got to be changed. doesnt nesessarly mean your filter will be the same after xxxx miles.
something that seems to always slip by most people.
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LOL
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2007
11:18:31
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Stan you have quite a pathetic little life. I find you quite comical at times, and anyone wants to buy into the horsesh!t you throw on this site then they are worst off then you are.
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TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2007
13:21:53
|  RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Well,
I've been using M-1 for over ten years with excellent results.
I just did my last change however with the Walmart brand oil, I think it's called Super tech.
The label says its 100% fully synthetic base oil.
Yeah, right.
13+ dollars for the 5 quart jug. My wifes protege takes 4 quarts, so I always get to use 2 jugs.
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2007
15:45:46
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Todd, i too am trying the SuperTech oil. while i was at wallyworld i also picked up a genuine MOPAR oil filter. i've used nothing but valvoline for nearly 30yrs with great service but just decided to give the "syn" oil a try.
my wife also has a protege which got syn oil too this time around.
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HCW
Dodge Dakota
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12/03/2007
16:04:16
|  RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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The first three vehicles I owned did not even have oil filter systems. I changed the oil when it changed colors. Still got 150K plus out of all of them. Quit counting angels on pinheads
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ProudAmerican
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2007
10:16:38
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Oil dependency threatens America’s economy and national security. To make Americans more secure and stimulate a stronger, more efficient economy, we need to reduce our dependence on oil and invest in domestic industries that mitigate this vulnerability.
non synthetic oil is made from crude oil
synthetic oil is made from liquid natural gas
there is plenty of natural gas in the USA
plain and simple
use synthetic lubricants and reduce our dependence on oil
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2007
16:35:39
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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"synthetic oil is made from liquid natural gas
there is plenty of natural gas in the USA "
More BS!!!!!
We import most of our natural gas just as we import most of our crude.
Try getting an education.
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Jordan
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2007
19:01:19
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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What started out as an informative thread has degraded to criticism, accusations and unnecessary comments from a few of the uninformed.
Too bad, Manny. Nice try, and thanks for the post, but the way this one's going, perhaps you should have left it to languish in obscurity in the Off-Topic area.
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ProudAmerican
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2007
20:11:09
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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there is plenty of natural gas in the USA
right now it is just cheaper to import it
because all of our wells are being used to
drill and pump crude oil
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he is a tard
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2007
21:17:39
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Manny = Stan = JimS = Shatto
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2007
21:32:40
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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"there is plenty of natural gas in the USA "
Stan, the same is true of crude oil.
What's your point?
Nevermind, you don't have one.
Oh, and get some help with that problem you have with talking to yourself.
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Cory Eye_Trip
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2007
22:16:56
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Ignore us.
Me and N56629 are just AMSOIL HATERS
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03 QC Sport +
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2007
13:09:46
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Natuaral Gas Production in the US has expanded tremendously over the last 5-10 years. The price of natural gas has risen to the point where it is economically feasable to increase production using hydro-fracturing techniques that were too cost prohibitive in the past. That is not the case anymore. Approximately 15% percent of Natural Gas is imported into this country. With the vast amount of reserves and increased production, that percentage will drop to zero in the next decade or so. If anyone has any doubts check out naturalgas.org and google the barnett shale and learn the truth.
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PlainN simple
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2007
14:19:05
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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amsoil claims they "Meet and Exceed" API approval
OK really ?
well here's some food for thought guys
(taken from 2 others posts)
...........................................
amsoil meets and exceeds API specs?
well gee smart guy why havent they got API certified????
owww thats right cause your full of sh!t
old news?
i find it comical that they (amsoil) knew this back in 02 and to date have not corrected the problem
nor are they API certified!!!!!
But ROYAL PURPLE IS !!!!!!!
.......................................
royal purple, check this link out
http://www.rateitall.com/i-218610-wal-mart-super-tech-motor-oil.aspx
Wal Marts cheap Super Tech oils are all API certified! (so they are warranty approved)
all this money these guys spend on amsoil
and they failed to get API approved!
so what does that say about the oil gentlemen ?
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BestOilPeriod
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2007
14:42:47
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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Reduce America's dependence on foreign oil!!!! Use Americas Choice Re-Refined Oil.
API Certified!!!!
Will not void manufacturer vehicle warranties!!!!
Refined from the highest grade used base stocks!!!!
http://www.ac-rerefined.com/
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correction
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2007
15:07:25
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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ac rerefind oils are not API
like amsoil and redline oils their literature
states that ac oils exceed api certification
also, RP racing oils are not api but only
state that RP racing oils exceed api certification
api is a minimum rating for oils interested
only in meeting minimum requirements
oils that know they exceed minimum api don't give a $hit
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YESTHEY ARE
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2007
15:22:53
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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America's Choice
Safety-Kleen also markets its own brand of re-refined motor oil. America's Choice® is a premium grade motor oil formulated exclusively from 100% highly re-refined base oils and performance additives. All America's Choice® products are produced in strict accordance with the standards of the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the American Automobile Manufacturers Association (AAMA).
General Motors, Ford and Chrysler have all approved the use of America's Choice® SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30, ILSAC certified, motor oil in all their cars. SAE 15W-40 has been approved by the leading heavy duty engine manufacturers.
http://www.ac-rerefined.com/html/re-refined.html
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correction
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2007
15:26:42
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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"produced in strict accordance with"
read the ac pdf literature file
only states that ac oils exceed api certification
not that they are api
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Fleet MGR
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2007
15:27:34
| RE: More On Synthetic Oil
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I run a government fleet and I have to use this oil by law. It has to be API approved or the government would not allow its use. My point is the same as yours it doesn't take much to get an API certification.
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