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General Dakota Board
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
13:16:44
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 Subject: RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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"Factory muscle cars were gone before some of us were even born, the EPA made sure of that. If you want one, build it."
*Cough* Viper *Cough*
Ford GT? LS Vette? SVT Cobra?
all are faster than the old muscle cars from the factory, they jsut dont have 400+ CI and pollute like a MutherFuker, well thats not even true, the viper is an 8.3L, not sure what the 240+ hp vettes come with, the new challenger concept? the Charger SRT8? even though it is a 4 door, still faster than some of the old muscle
hell, even the new GTO is faster and put out more HP than the original, sure 350hp on the new one vs 390hp on the old one, figure out hp by the old equation on the new GTO and you get like 412 hp
engines are better than the muscle car engines, its not that hard to figure out, people jsut bitch becuase "its not the same", smaller engines getting better milage, lasting longer, putting out more HP
where they may or may not fall back is there isnt as much potential in a smaller engine, but hey, there is always Turbos, how often were they used in the early 70s to make a car go fast?
Old muscle is dead, outdated, and replaced by newer and better
dont get me wrong, i would LOVE a muscle car, i really want a 69 SuperBee, engine doesnt really matter, id like a 440, doubt i could get a hemi unless i put it in. Thier time has come and gone....let it die with the respect for waht it was
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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Mattleg
Dodge Dakota
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1/08/2006
15:12:09
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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The viper only has 500 bhp from the factory, and cost $80,000. You could get a chevy impala with a 650 bhp big block from the factory for much less, and there worth twice what new vipers are worth today. The truth is that muscle cars back in the 70's could be bought by the average joe like you and me. Today few people can even afford a supercar like vipers, let alone feed them fuel and protect them with insurance.
Dont get me wrong I love Vipers. I have a signed picture from when I met Carol Shelby back in 1990 when he paced the first viper in the indy 500.
old horsepower equation? Horspower is a fictional unitless number calculated from rpm and torque. hp=(torque*rpm)/5252 The equation for horsepower has been the same for over 100 years.
Back in the 70's the factory would underrate the horsepower and install restrictors to keep the insurance lower. Today's cars are over rated and tuned to rev higher for peak horsepower all for the sake of advertising rather than maximize usable power like they did back then.
What I mean by muscle cars isnt just about the cars and the horsepower, its about the entire experience. The freedom, the fun, and the ability to work on your own car. How many viper owners know how to tune them. They don't, they open there wallet to Hennessy.
When the Worlds roads are taken over by hybrids even a 3.0L gas engine will be a muscle car.
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
15:48:21
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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oh, Z06 vette has a 7.0L LS7
the difference between cars like that of yesterday and today is your average 20 something blue collor worker cant go out and buy a car like that
Z06 vette starts at like 65k
Viper starts at like 87k
Ford GT starts at 151k
Mustang SVT, well i dont have time to look, but im sure its not cheap
500+ hp costs money, thats all there is to it
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
15:54:10
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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electric motor vs gas engine, which can produce more torque and how fast?
and i read somewhere that the equation they used changed in the 70s
and a 650 hp impala from the factory?
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
15:56:12
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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oh, and from the factory, why does a new GTO run faster than 67 GTO down the 1/4?
why does an SRT4 run the 1/4 just as fast as a 440 charger? you have to get the info from actual tests from mags and places like that
not "stories"
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
16:54:05
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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Boss 429 mustang, 14 sec 1/4, 12 sec modded
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html
1973 Dodge Charger SE 440ci 7.4 15.2
2004 Dodge SRT-4 5.3 13.9
hell
1991 Dodge Spirit R/T 6.5 15.0
1968 Plymouth Barracuda 340ci 7.1 14.9
1968 Plymouth 'Cuda 440 5.6 14.0
1969 Plymouth Road Runner 426 Hemi 5.1 13.5 (C&D Jan '69)
these are test drive results
1974 Pontiac GTO 350ci 9.4 16.5
2004 Pontiac GTO LS1 5.3 13.8
2005 Pontiac GTO LS2 4.8 13.3 (C&D Jan '05)
1967 Chevrolet Camaro SS-350 8.0 15.4
1969 Chevrolet Camaro ZL-1 5.3 11.68 (Book:Ultimate Performance Cars '05)
1972 Chevrolet Camaro Budget GT 10.5 17.6
1972 Chevrolet Camaro Luxury GT 9.8 17.2
1972 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 7.5 15.5
1974 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 8.1 15.4
1975 Chevrolet Camaro 350 11.0 17.4
1975 Chevrolet Camaro RS 8.5 16.8
1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 9.7 N/A
1983 Chevrolet Camaro 9.5 17.5
1983 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 H.O. 6.7 15.0
1984 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta 9.3 17.0
1985 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta 10.0 17.0
1985 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z28 7.0 15.2
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z 6.6 14.9
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z L98 6.8 15.3
1988 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z 7.0 15.5
1990 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z 5.8 14.4
1990 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 6.5 15.0
1992 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 6.7 15.2
1993 Chevrolet Camaro V-6 9.0 16.6
1993 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 5.8 14.4
1994 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 5.7 14.2
1994 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 Conv. 6.2 14.5
1995 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 5.7 14.2
1995 Chevrolet Camaro 3800 7.4 15.7
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 5.7 14.1
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS 5.3 13.8
1998 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 5.2 13.7
1998 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS 5.2 13.6
for the most part comeros get FASTER as they get NEWER
2005 Chrysler 300C 5.6 14.1
1991 GMC Syclone 5.3 14.1 (M/T Sept 91)
1993 GMC Typhoon 5.3 14.1 (M/T June 93)
keep in mind, real world tests in real world situations under different conditions
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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stevies
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/08/2006
17:43:06
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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Shelby should come back to the Dakota. Or someone knowledgable with enough $$$ to start a small production line and turn regular cab standard base model dakotas into hemi wielding monsters. screw svt, if dodge doesnt have enough sense to do it themselves, someone else should. it cant be that hard...
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
18:38:33
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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thats SRT
and besides, they dont make RC dakotas anymore, jsut quad and club cabs
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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athenianR/T
Dodge Dakota
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1/08/2006
20:05:28
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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wow... didn't think I'd get this level, or even this much response...
Old muscle is dead, yes, I'll agree with that... and EPA had little to do with that, it was the gas crisis in the early 70's, compounded by sky rocketing insurance costs... and I'll have to agree heavily with the modern vs. classic cost comparison... income level aside, a BRAND new 1969 Boss 429 mustang would sell for around 3200, compared to a base model at 2300. try getting ANYTHING thats quality, let alone performance, for below 20K nowadays.
AS for comparing classic performance to modern performance... well, thats just comparing granny smiths to red delicious... apples to apples... the main thing that Modern has over old school is technology. better metals, better design, and way better modernization on factory line assembly. they handle better, due to better suspension, and as for gas economy, well, I HAD a inline six, 200cid in my 1965 Mustang. it averaged around 26 MPG. then, I got the HP bug, and installed a heavily moded 302. now it gets 12 MPG...
the "bigger is better" mentality is not the issue. Look at the new Charger R/T, with the hemi, its supposedly getting (if I remeber right) 27 hwy mpg. fuel economy is NOT an issue with a larger engine, so long as it has a computer that can think economy when economy is needed... at cruising the engine runs on a random 4 cyl operation, under light accel, it operates on 6 cyls, and heavy accel it runs on all 8. thats Technology for ya! Modern cars have gotten much better due to computers, and coming from ME thats a deathly statement... I grew up in Indiana, and everyone I know has at least one car made before 1965. the cars have improved so much, that I've lost most of my interest in restorations, and am getting rid of my Mustang, just to get another new car. ( well, that and an Armalite AR-10 Carbine, but thats beside the point!)
The best defense I've heard her so far is with the retooling of the line... but that's not to viable, as it isn't too difficult to wheel in some different engines, and hoist em into place... say meagerly, 2000-3000 engines... but that did get me thinking... its also different computers, wiring harnesses, suspension changes for weight difference... HOWEVER, all of that can be regained, its a MINOR expense, compared to the revenue that a vehicle sale brings in.... I'd be willing to bet this 5.7 SRT Dakota that I have been hearing about for the past year was killed in the accounting room. I'm gonna have to look, to see if I can track down that article I read...
BTW, someone said something about " IF you want a hemi in a truck, buy a Ram." Sorry, but I think that a Ram is too heavy, and too large for what I am after. I'd like a lightweight truck, with a High Powered engine. its not too much to ask of a manufacturer? Its not like I'm asking for them to put a Viper motor in a Truck, that'd just be stupid! If I wanted to go to that extreme, I'd build it myself... a used viper motor, computer, wiring harness, and tranny can be picked up for around $12K
Oh, yeah, and toyota's 4.7 is producing 271 HP... in the stock tundra. thats 11 more then that "high output" and 41 more than the stock 4.7 being put into the new daks.... in the Tacoma, they're getting a 4.0-liter V6 that produces 245 horsepower and 282 lb-ft.... 15 less hp than the v-8 from dodge... WTF?? come on... they really need to get their stuff together, its becoming painfully obvious that American car and truck manufacturers are falling behind, not only in design, but on ever road out there.
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athenianR/T
Dodge Dakota
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1/08/2006
20:14:50
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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Oh, the Dakota SRT hemi I had heard about, it was supposed to be a 6.1 hemi... not the 5.7, but at this point I'd be glad to just see a 5.7 R/T... i was thinking about getting a new dakota R/T, until I read everything thus far on the topic... looks like I'll be waiting until I find what I'm looking for.... that new Charger R/T is starting to sound better every day now...
Oh, one other thing, I reread the arguements on "fuel economy"... First, I am sick of this always coming up... gas costs money, and if you can't afford it, buy a Huffy, or a bus pass. The only other thing I can say, is that if you're buying a specialty vehicle as a daily driver, and fuel economy is that important to you, you should be looking into getting one of those little hybrid cars. My R/T gas economy SUCKS. point blank. but then again, I don't drive it all the time, so It works out fine for me.
high performance= low fuel economy.
smaller car= high fuel economy.
does this really have to be said??
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
20:34:19
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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and as far as the average joe not being able to afford insurance and gas, that has nothing really to do with the automakers and muscle being dead
so i wish people would quit arguinmg that point
and cars would be cheaper if they didnt have certain things....like cruise control, leather, AC, power anything and the computers to run them and that is the governments fault, very little has to do with the automakers not making "muscle cars" anymore
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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ID 4x4
GenIII
1/08/2006
23:21:32
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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Take a chill pill! Tundra is heavier, Tacoma probably weighs the same, but it's still a v6, surprised you can't look at peak #'s and take it for face value. You obviously think DC sucks, so buy something else, or make or mod your own.
01 cc 4.7 5-speed 4x4, Rancho lift,4:56 LSD, MBRP exhaust, Superchips
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Mattleg
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/09/2006
02:23:47
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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You posted all those times for cars over the years, which is great, I agree they do get faster. My bet is those times are based on claims at the time the car was built. But your neglecting a very important factor, Tires. In those 30 years or so you cover tire technology was advancing very fast. Bias ply tires were used well into the the mid 80's. Modern compounds are made using synthetic rubber and silica materials that last longer and have much better grip than those of the past. Its unfair to compare based solely on 1/4 times when they were using drastically different tire technology.
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2006
02:00:09
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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athenian, I think your arilite A-10 is going to be your best invesment long term. seeing as how phukkerd up things are 'goin
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Alec
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2006
14:59:31
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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Well, i guess i was a little off. Two year or so ago I guessed that the R/T would come back to the Dakota, but the 4.7L engine would still be used. I was wrong cuz I said they would place a turbocharger on it (helped by mitsubishi with the new raider), but all it got a was a better cam and cosmetic stuff right? What a waste. Kind of a dissapointment. I dont understand what the R/T part of the truck is. I guess if we all get hood scoops and put decals on a 4.7L we have a fast car.....it's not even that great though. Oh well, our world is all about marketing and less about actual preformance, so I guess this will make some money for Dodge. I'll keep my little 3.9L V6 till it wont go anymore, but after that, I think I'm going to have to go with an Asian truck as much as I hate to say it. (hey they're not TRULLY asian, they are put together in America)
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Super bee
GenI
1/11/2006
15:05:01
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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old muscle is over-rated
cars that are NOT street legal (muscle cars) are running the same times as street legal modern cars
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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ptschett
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/11/2006
23:00:28
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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How are muscle cars not "street legal"? A brand new, exact replica of, say, a '69 Hemi Charger might not be street-legal if built <i>now</i>, but a real '69 which is compliant with the laws in place in '69 is as legal as it was on the day it was built.
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Super bee
GenI
1/12/2006
01:44:59
| RE: mt rant on 06 Dakota R/T
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i meant when they hop them up and run them at drag strips
and i was right, kinda
they didnt change HP equation, they went from gross HP rating to net hp rating in 72, (and shortly after the muscle era died)
here is a link with info, (read it anyway, its pretty sweet)
http://moparmusclemagazine.com/roadtests/37426/
they say something along the lines of "not that 32 years of technology has given us much"
they wouldnt say that if they hooked it up to a smog detector now would they?
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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