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Wildman5977
Dodge Dakota
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11/02/2005
15:35:01
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 Subject: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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I have the 2000 Dakota Club Cab, 4.7 Liter, 5 spd, Rear Wheel Antilock Brakes (RWAL),
I was coming home in the rain between traffic lights at about 15-20MPH. I braked hard, the rear wheels locked, (I heard them sliding), and the front wheels released, I felt the truck lose the front wheel braking and I banged into the car ahead of me. Minor damage to my truck, bumper mount bent, right front light assembly tweaked and the bumper fascia cut up, my bumper slid over the other cars bumper and took out the window on an 01 Volvo wagon.
I have noticed several people complaining about the brakes and rotors on the Dakotas and I think I have figured out why they are going bad. When the rear wheel sensor indicates a lockup, the rear wheel modulator stops the pressure from the master cylinder, which also stops the increase in pressure to the front wheels. And makes the front wheel cylinders to lose pressure releasing the front wheel brakes. This would cause the vehicle to lose control or slide on the locked up rear wheels. This would also cause problems with the front rotor wear.
Has anyone else had an accident with these vehicles that they thought it shouldn't have happened?
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Wildman5977
Dodge Dakota
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11/02/2005
15:49:44
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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BTW, I have disabled the antilock sytem by removing the 40A fuse for the brake pump in the fuse box behind the battery, the only bad indications are the (ABS) and (BRAKE) indicator lights are on on the dash, braking is fine
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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11/02/2005
17:29:28
|  RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Locked up the front brakes a couple of times on dry pavement. On snow and ice I can sometimes feel the ABS kick in. But I've never had problems controlling braking when this happens. I just let up on the brakes a little until traction is ragained.
FWIW, ABS is not what it's cracked up to be. On dry pavement it can reduce panic stop distance by eliminating the human facter. Ufortunatly, on slick surfaces that feature can defeat itself. And you now know exactly what happens. That's one of the reasons insurance companies no longer give a discount for ABS equipped vehicles.
Rather than disconnect the ABS, I would be looking for other problems.
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Wildman5977
Dodge Dakota
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11/03/2005
00:36:08
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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The brake system is supposed to brake 60/40, 60% on the front wheels, 40% on the rear wheels. With the way that this RWAL is setup, if the back wheels lock, the brake system only gives you 20-25% and locked rear wheels, That is a bad design, I noticed that this truck would do this even new.
This is a design/manufacturers flaw, and I was interested in seeing if others had the same problems.
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Jeff
GenIII
11/03/2005
07:05:18
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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my rear drums locked up a couple times during hard and sudden braking, but with the light empty bed i'm not sure if they locked up completely or just lost traction with the forward slump of the truck from sudden braking.
Jeff
'99 3.9 clubcab
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cszalai
Dodge Dakota
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11/03/2005
08:07:02
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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You are talking about rear drum brakes....right?
or is the problem showing up with rear disc also (because thats what i have)
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Spacinjason
Dodge Dakota
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11/03/2005
10:36:02
|  RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Message:
I absolutely hate the rear ABS on my '01 QC. It engages way to easy, and I feel like I have no braking control when it is engaging! I feel like I could get the truck stopped quicker without it. I have even hit bumps when braking and had it engage when the rear axle suspension unloads from the bump. Also engages very easily if you get the brakes wet at all. Sucks! I have a '98 Camry with rear ABS and I have only had it engage one time in 4 years, whereas my QC engages the ABS system frequently. I know ABS is a safety feature, and may actually stop my truck quicker in certain situations, but I feel that the system engages way to easily and way to often. Plus the front brakes suck (turned stock rotors three times, then had aftermarket rotors installed and have had them turned once), so when the ABS kicks in I feel like I have very little brakes at all. I find myself 'babying' the brakes sometimes as I don't want the ABS to engage, and don't want to warp the front rotors again. Maybe I should cut a hole in the floor and use my 'Fred Flintstone brakes'!
I absolutely love my Dakota, but the brakes suck! Anyone else have similar problems? Thanks for letting me vent!
Spacinjason
'01 QC 4x4
4.7L., 5 sp., 3.55 LSD
Magnaflow exhaust
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Roy
Dodge Dakota
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11/03/2005
10:41:41
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Ever thought of giving yourself enough space between you and the vehicle in front of you so you can stop safely? I hate it when people blame their crashes (it's not an accident) on their vehicles.
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Wildman5977
Dodge Dakota
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11/03/2005
15:01:19
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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I have front wheel disk and rear wheel drums, this is not the first time that I have noticed the vehicles tendency to 'skate' in wet weather where the rear wheels locked and the front wheels released, and it felt like the old game that we did as kids in skidding our rear wheels on our bikes for fun, but its not fun with a 4k lb vehicle. This could also be causing the failures of the front drums whith the abs system engaging and causing problems.
Roy, I have driven for 30+ yrs and have not rear ended anyone until this happened, and yes it was vehicle and road conditions because if the front brakes had stayed engaged, (60% of braking force) I would have been able to stop. As it was I 'skated' into her. The antilock system should not engage in low speeds, under 25mph.
I have also been a technician for 30+ yrs, worked on plenty of vehicles, and a number of brake jobs.
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SMBK
Dodge Dakota
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8/31/2007
17:14:52
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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I have a 1990 Dakota 4X4 with RWAL. My manual says this was introduced in 1990 and was upgraded in 1993. (to include front brake anti lock)The other day the ANTI LOCK warning light came on. It appears that on the next brake application the rear brakes did not release fully. I have checked the master cylinder, wiring to the speed sensor on the rear diff, the wheel cylinders and the wiring to the RWAL control module under the dash. It all appears to be fine. The owners manual says this module can be damaged by high output radio transmissions. Would an IPOD I TRIP do this? Any other ideas?
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03 QC Sport +
Dodge Dakota
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8/31/2007
17:40:23
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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I read a real good article on brake problems and so called warped rotors. I think this article explains alot:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
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Xfire
Dodge Dakota
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11/16/2007
09:29:31
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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I have a 2000 Ext. Cab 4.7L 4WD Dakota. Since around 23-27k miles I've had nothing but trouble with the braking system. By the time I hit 35k miles, I had the stock rotors turned 5 times until there was nothing left to cut. After reading the article O3 QC Sport + posted, that makes sense, as the vibration under medium to heavy braking problem only went away for a short period of time, returning in full force around 1k miles after each rotor turn.
My response was to install Brembo drilled rotors for better heat dissipation in hopes that with less heat, the rotors wouldn't warp. While the rotors didn't warp, the vibration remained. I then started to explore other options, eventually landing on the ABS system. I pulled the 20A fuse for ABS/RWAL from the in dash fuse box and the problem went away save very minor vibration, probably from unevenly distributed brake dust deposits resulting from a long term defective ABS system. The downside to this is that circuit also powers the speed sensor, so no fuse, no speedometer. Thank you for the post about the 40A brake pump fuse Wildman, I will be pulling it the next time I drive my truck. It was to the point that light braking would engage the ABS and jerk the truck to a stop nearly every brake application, yet every mechanic and brake specialist I took the truck to says the brakes are working normally and to continue turning my warped rotors. I think I like Wildman's fix action a little better.
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miltonwaddums
Dodge Dakota
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11/16/2007
13:20:32
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Hi all,
I just read this post and thought I'd give my $.02 on RWAL brakes.
Braking 101: When rear wheels lock up and the fronts do not, the lack of rear traction can cause the vehicle to spin out, slide sideways, or otherwise cause the driver to lose control. I think everyone here knows that.
RWABS is not really intended to improve performance or shorten stopping distances. It allows the brake system designers and engineers to apply a little more brake pressure (and thus stopping power) to the rears. However, it mostly just allows for greater vehicle yaw control during hard braking. In the event that too much is applied, the ABS will as you know, pulsate the brakes so that the rear wheels can regain grip.
I am not a huge advocate of RWAL brakes, but they do have their place, IMHO. I always, ALWAYS drive a RWABS vehicle as if it had no ABS. The RWABS is only there for stability and to allow the driver to retain control under extreme braking.
I'd like to know if anyone has a different opinion of what I just said, I might learn something.
Good day,
Jay
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RadioMan
Dodge Dakota
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11/16/2007
14:31:32
|  RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Message:
I *thought* the idea of RWAL brakes was to keep
you from going into a sideways skid not getten
stopped faster.
The front brakes may lock up if they want to but
the rears will lock/unlock to keep the truck
straight.
I do agree with all about the junk factory
rotors that are on ALL cars and trucks. I
scraped mine at 12k and went to Bendix rotors
and ceramic pads. Best thing I ever did PLUS
no more black brake dust all over the front
wheels...
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Slvr02DQuad
Dodge Dakota
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11/16/2007
14:56:29
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Message:
A couple of things to add...
Have a 2002 QC, 4x4, Drum in back, ABS. First had issue around 65K, went in for state inspection, and failed. This was first inspection since I had a 4 year sicker from date of new vehicle purchase (NJ). The tech showed me a diagram where the right rear wheel locked up while breaking ahead of the left. And failed me. Told me I needed to adjust them. Went to a private garage, they adjusted something, and gave me an inspection sticker.
Now for the accident... Dry road conditions, posted speed 35, probably going 35-40. Car runs red light across path of traffic. Little POS chevy SUV like thing stops ~50 feet from intersection. I had about 4 car lenghts, applied breaks, slowed down, felt like rear locked up and I rolled / slid into her. I pushed in front bumper, bent AC condenser, and pushed it into radiator. I should have been able to stop, but once breaks "let up" on me, I rolled into her. Person who ran red light skated off free, and insurance nailed me for hitting person in front of me.
Mason
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miltonwaddums
Dodge Dakota
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11/16/2007
16:36:58
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Message:
Sorry to hear about you accident. I hate it when the cause gets off and someone else gets nailed.
Anywho, maybe I wasn't clear before, the idea of RWAL brakes IS to keep the vehicle from going sideways.
When the brakes "let go" (i've never felt this happen to me and I've stomped them pretty hard before), were you manually pumping the brakes? I'm not blaming you, just like to know if you were pumping them or not. Like I said before, I always, ALWAYS drive a RWAL vehicle as if it has NO ABS at all.
Jay
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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11/16/2007
17:30:24
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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yep, "lets go". thats how they always worked on my '00 QC. i'm glad i have a manual trans because when they do that in an emergency stop, i can grab the next lower gear.
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BeerHat
Dodge Dakota
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11/17/2007
02:29:13
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Very sorry to hear about the accident.
Supplement the fronts guys.
http://bigdakotabrakes.gotdns.com/brakes.html
Dan
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Kowalski
GenIII
11/17/2007
07:29:07
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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Message:
While more front brake might help, I don't think that's the solution here. The brakes in my '00 Dak have never "let up" like these guys are saying - should be a problem there that could be corrected.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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pitadak
Dodge Dakota
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11/17/2007
11:31:34
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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I believe the rear wheel antilock system should have no effect on the front brakes. It's a totally seperate system. I have had similar problems as you people have been describing with my 98, fortunately no accidents yet. I replaced my brake booster & master about 2 years ago and the problem was gone until about 4 months ago, now the problem is back. Any other thoughts ?
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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11/17/2007
12:28:28
| RE: Dakota RWAL Brakes
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i don't know about the Slvr02DQuad but all mine does when the RWABS kicks in is the pedal dorps a little. as if it is releiving pressure from the system. it's done this since new. hasn't really affected my braking. maybe it's felt more on the QC's because of the larger rear drums. and it will only do it when the truck is unloaded.
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