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General Dakota Board
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Sandman705
Dodge Dakota
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7/13/2005
13:54:50
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 Subject: Wrong ATF?
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I recently went to get pennzoil to give me a flush and filter change. First of all they couldn't get my lines to flush. Then, the guy working there said he would just take it for a spin to get the fluids moving since the lines weren't flowing but when he went to put it in gear there was no drive. So he took the pan back off to check it out and apparently the filter kit he used (FRAM) didn't have the proper filter o-ring so he had to use the old one. He tried to flush again with no luck. 2 hours I was waiting there for them to finish. The guy finally gave up trying to flush it and printed up my bill. I saw that they used dex/mercon fluid. I brought this up to the guy telling him that you can't use that and he said it was okay because of the friction additive he used. Now I figured these guys should know what there doing but is this okay to use Dex/mercon fluid with a friction additive? Oh and they charged me $170 for the job (in Canada).
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
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7/13/2005
15:37:42
|  RE: Wrong ATF?
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Nope. They're destroying your truck at your expense.
ATF+3 or +4, depending on vintage.
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modain
Dodge Dakota
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7/13/2005
15:42:17
|  RE: Wrong ATF?
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According to the experiences of others posting here and remembering some TSB's the job you paid for is wrong. The Dexron/Mercon plus additive is not compatible in Chrysler trannies. The shifiting won't be right.
I'm afraid you'll need to have it flushed and refilled with the right fluid - ATF +3 or +4 (depending upon the tranny). I hope those with direct experience will chime in soon so you can have the definitive answer.
Oh, yeah. You can't make the assumption that paid mechanics/shops know what they are doing in all cases. (This is not a ding towards anybody, please no flame wars.) Most people aren't aware that Chrysler products need their own ATF. I wasn't before I bought one.
And when Dexron/Mercon (and Type F) is used in just about every make on the road it's easy to assume it'll work in DCX vehicles with the friction modifier. This eliminates the need for stocking a third tranny fluid.
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STS
Dodge Dakota
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7/13/2005
15:42:27
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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I'm useing ATF +3. But if you go to the dealer they will sell you ATF+4 if you have a 46RH transmisson.
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woodrow
Dodge Dakota
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7/13/2005
21:22:30
|  RE: Wrong ATF?
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You need to take back over to them and make them reflush the trans. and tell them to put what Chry.recommends.If they tell you again that it is ok with the additive they put in then tell them to put it in wrighting that if anything goes wrong due to the wrong fluid or the additive they put in they replace your tranny.Try this www.allpar.com and read and print what it tells you about mopar trans fluid.Go into the repair part.It should tell you everything you need to know.Goodluck
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KJS
GenIII
7/14/2005
05:57:47
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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first off mang if you went to one of those quickie lube places like mr.lube,lubex and such in your case pennzoil, they don't know what they are doing, you don't have to be quilified to work in a place like that and they only make minimum wage as well, if you went to that place i would go back and raise a stink, when i worked for a nissan dealership we used to get alot of people coming into the shop with such problems as leaking tranny pans and no oil because the gr10 kid, forgot to put the oil plug back in, those places are only okay if you are cheap and are in a rush and cannot do it yourself or get to a dealer.
My truck looks like it was in a knife fight, and lost! http://www.cardomain.com/ride/1275365
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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7/14/2005
13:34:05
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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YUP, one of my neighbors is a manager over several of those quickie lubes. He says they replace several engines a year because "bonehead" for got to put, oil, filter or drain plug back in the engine.
Now if they can't do a simple oil change right how are they going to do a tranny flush correctly.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/14/2005
14:55:03
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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i wouldnt take it back there.. i'd chaulk it up as one of life's little experiences and learn from it.
replace the crap they put in there with at least ATF+3 or equivalent. It's not hard to change the fluid yourself if you have a set of sockets and a couple jackstands.
There's something about those flush systems that just doesnt seem safe to me. There are a lot of small passages and lines in an auto tranny.. if the flush actually cleans off any bit of sludge, it could clog up any part of the valve body and ruin a good tranny in a matter of minutes.
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STS
Dodge Dakota
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7/14/2005
15:31:24
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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What brand of ATF 3 are you useing? I'm using catrol ATF.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/14/2005
20:13:02
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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that's what i am using in my 727
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
7/14/2005
22:41:10
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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intense. You could also use FORD Type F in that 727 :)
It doesn't cost any more than Dextron/Mercon and has a lot higher boiling temp vs. dextron/mercon.
I don't know much about ATF+3 / +4 so i can;t compair to that.
I've ran TypeF in Chevy's and Mopars but that was old school trannies. It shifted better too. And one day when I got a B&M shift kit for one of them tranny's and when it said to USE Trick Shift it also said if you didn't want to use the expensive B&M Trick Shift to use TYPE F. i thought THAT was funny.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
7/15/2005
13:04:05
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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you could use just aobut anything in the older 3 speeds.. but i know that ATF works good.
we used D/M in our A999 that was in our 1985 van. It had 300K miles on it.. worked fine.
but four speeds need ATF+3 or better
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
7/15/2005
16:45:18
| ATF Amsoil Steven Roark Amsoil Dealer # 1061837
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Chrysler went from ATF+ (MS 7176B) to ATF+4 in less than ten years. Essentially they were trying to make up for shifting problems in some of their transmissions by "tweaking" the frictional properties of their fluid rather than recalling the affected units. The ATF+4 fluid does seem to have solved the problems with some of the transmissions from the mid 1990's.
However, I know many Dodge owners that have noticeable and significant improvements switching to Amsoil Universal Synthetic ATF. They state that the transmission characteristics are better than when it was new. Yes we all know ... transmissions from different manufacturers use various types of clutch pack materials. So ... is it possible to formulate a single fluid that will behave differently in GM, Ford and Chrysler transmissions? The specifications for friction characteristics are for how the fluid behaves in the particular application, given the types of materials used in that transmission. They are not the stand alone properties of the fluid, which is where I think the misunderstanding comes in.
Amsoil Universal Synthetic ATF is truely "Universal"
Amsoil did offer a Synthetic ATF specifically for ATF +3/+4 applications about 3-4 years ago. However once they were able to integrate this additive chemistry into their Dexron/Mercon formulation, they discontinued making this second fluid.
__________________________________________________
WHY SYNTHETIC vs. NON-SYNTHETIC's or BLENDS ???
In General ... A 100% TRUE "Synthetic" ATF FLOWS BETTER WHEN COLD, DOES NOT GET AS HOT, AND BREAKS DOWN AT A HIGHER TEMPERATURE ... than conventional crude petroleum ATF, and thus SYNTHETIC ATF's HAVE A LONGER WORKING LIFE.
Specifically, ... Amsoil Synthetic Universal ATF improves fuel efficiency, reduces transmission temperatures, increases transmission life, provides unsurpassed thermal stability, and offers up to five times the service life of conventional ATFs. It also delivers maximum protection for towing and other severe-duty applications.
__________________________________________________
Interested In Requesting a FREE Amsoil Catalog click the following link.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
7/15/2005
16:51:18
| Amsoil ATF - Steven Roark Amsoil Dealer # 1061837
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I would like to add the following.
Automatic Transmission Fluids are a thin dino, sythetic or blend "base" oil with anti-foam, anti-oxidation, red dye and other additives, with a very high level of dispersants and little or no detergents.The main difference between one type of ATF and another is the amount of friction modifier additive for control of servo clutch action. Type F contains no Friction Modifier, Dexron/Mercon contaion a moderate amount and Chrysler "ATF+__" contains the most.
The transmission does not get "dirty" inside like an engine, ... but it does need to keep the clutch band particles, etc., from settling and clogging valve, passages, etc. Basically, ATF is a hydraulic oil ... with the specific additive package for transmissions, plus the red dye for identification.
__________________________________________________
Amsoil Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid.
Recommended for applications requiring the following specifications:
Chrysler ATF+, ATF+2, ATF+3, ATF+4
__________________________________________________
AMSOIL Synthetic Universal ATF is far superior to any group II base oil blended with hydro treated naphthenic oil. We use a premium additive chemistry that meets the static and dynamic coefficient of friction parameters to meet (and exceed) ATF+4 requirements. It also meets the coefficients of friction parameters for MERCON, MERCON V, DEXRON III, and Diamond SPIII.
All AMSOIL lubricants are designed to improve performance and increase protection to engine and transmission components. Repeat, ... Chrysler developed the "+4" spec to "fix" an inherent chattering problem with the Chrysler transmissions. There are fluids that are far superior to Chryslers "+4" specs, including ours!
We didn’t just one day decide to make this claim just for the heck of it. This was very carefully researched and we have been developing superior fluids for over 30 years.
__________________________________________________
AMSOIL ATF resists thermal and oxidative degradation up to THREE TO FIVE TIMES LONGER than conventional transmission fluids do. It protects clutches, planetary gears, valves, pumps and seals from damaging sludge and varnish deposits. AMSOIL ATF helps prevent component overheating and ensures cooler, smoother transmission operation.
AMSOIL ATF outperforms petroleum fluids in low temperature fluidity. In fact, AMSOIL ATF offers three times the cold temperature fluidity required by current automatic transmission fluid specifications. AMSOIL ATF provides easier starting, faster warm-ups, smoother shifting and improved fuel economy.
AMSOIL ATF is formulated for EXTENDED DRAIN INTERVALS. Transmissions usually operate under severe service conditions. They are subjected to extensive idling, frequent short trips, cold temperature driving, sustained hot weather driving or trailer towing. When conventional transmission fluid is used, it should be changed every 15,000 to 30,000 miles. AMSOIL ATF should be changed at intervals up to three times longer than the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer.
AMSOIL Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid is completely compatible with other synthetic and petroleum automatic transmission fluids. AMSOIL ATF is a universal, multifunctional fluid and greatly reduces the need for specialized fluid inventories and the possibilities of misapplication.
__________________________________________________
Request a FREE Amsoil Catalog by clicking the following link.
Thank You,
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
7/15/2005
16:56:04
| Amsoil ATF - Steven Roark Amsoil Dealer # 1061837
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In conclusion and for the record:
Chrysler ATF+ 4 is an upgrade from the +3 and is now recomended
for all the trucks even if your owners manual says ATF+3.
__________________________________________________
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
7/15/2005
16:59:44
|  Amsoil ATF - Steven Roark Amzoil Dealer # 1061837
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Helpful advice for a successful ATF Fluid Change
Changing Your Transmission Fluid in 12 EASY Steps:
1. Make sure the fluid is warm. Warm up your Dakota so the transmission is at normal operating temperature. Pull the transmission dipstick. Fresh fluid is translucent and cherry red. Some darkening is normal, but if it is reddish brown or mustard color and smells like burnt varnish, it is worn out.
2. Drain the fluid by loosening the pan. Select the correct filter replacement based on pan shape and prepare a large pan to catch the fluid. Then loosen each pan bolt a turn or two and loosen one corner more than rest. Drain mostly from this corner.
3. Finish removing the pan and any gasket material from the pan or case. Avoid scratching the metal and make sure the pan’s gasket surface isn’t bent or distorted.
4. Remove the old filter. Most transmission filters are held in place with a bolt or two, but some are held by a clip. Be careful to include O-Rings or other seals.
5. Install a new filter. Use the clips or bolts from the old filter. Be sure O-Rings, etc. are in place. If the filter has a long intake neck, gently push the neck into place without unseating the O-Ring.
6. Clean the pan thoroughly. Inspect the pan before cleaning. A small amount of fine grey clutch dust is normal. However, if you find metal shavings, there has been transmission damage. Clean the pan with solvent and wipe dry so there is no harmful residue.
7. Position gasket on pan. Some gaskets have four holes slightly smaller than the rest to allow four bolts through the pan and through these smaller holes to hold the gasket in place.
8. Hand tighten pan bolts in a criss-cross pattern. After that, use a torque wrench to tighten bolts to proper ft-lbs as per manufacturer.
9. Refill the transmission using only the amount shown as “refill capacity” in the owners manual or "AMSOIL Product Selection Guide,” using the type of fluid specified for the vehicle.
10. If doing only a partial fluid replacement, skip to instruction 12 below. If doing a complete fluid replacement, follow the steps in instruction 11.
11. You now have replaced the fluid in the pan. To replace the fluid in the torque converter and oil cooler also, follow these steps.
Step 1. Obtain the total system capacity of the vehicle from the manufacturer or I can provide it for you. Have this amount readily available.
Step 2. Disconnect the oil cooler line from the oil cooler. As you may not know which is the pressure side and which is the return side, have both directed so the stream of fluid will be directed toward a receptacle.
Step 3. With another person, be prepared to add ATF to the fill area as it is being pumped out of the oil cooler line.
Step 4. Start the engine, and as the old fluid is pumped out, add fresh fluid to the pan.
Step 5. When either the fluid color brightens or the total capacity has been replaced, shut the engine off and re-attach the oil cooler line. All fluids has now been changed.
12. Recheck the fluid level. With the truck on level ground, set the parking brake and the transmission in “Park” or “Neutral.” Let the engine idle for a few minutes. Shift the transmission into different positions before returning the lever to “Park” or “Neutral.” Check the fluid level again and check for leaks.
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This is really a "two-person" or a "three person" DIY operation. The ATF will come out faster than it goes in ... so you may need to stop and restart the engine a few times.
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Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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Mopower
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2005
09:34:06
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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Message:
This type of problem is exactly why I have my local Dodge dealer change my ATF. For about the same money you could have had the fluid changed at the dealer and they'd have used the correct fluid.
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zzark
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2005
13:51:00
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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Message:
Thanks Steven Roark.
That was very informative.
Can you recommend any of the "flush" machines or services or business?
And how do you get the people who "flush" to use the correct fluid?
zzark
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zzark
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2005
16:44:42
| RE: Wrong ATF?
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How much ATF to fully flush/fill a DAK 3.9?
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
7/17/2005
17:22:20
| Amsoil ATF - Steven Roark Amzoil Dealer # 1061837
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zzark,
I must admit that my brother is a certified mechanic and he changes my transmission fluids so I can not assist you with the actual details of a "complete" flush.
However, there are others on the site that might be able to help.
The following members of this site use Amsoil Synthetic Universal ATF ...
--- Larry of J&J Auto
--- Big Blue QC
--- And Many Others
... and they love it!
They talk about measurable improvements of ...
--- Lower Operating Temperatures
--- Smoother Shifting
... and lab tests and millions of highway miles have demonstrated:
--- Cleaner transmission components
--- More efficient power transfer
--- Lower Transmission temperatures
--- Dramatically less transmission wear
--- Smoother cold temperature operation
--- Long drain intervals
... and improved MPG when used in conjunction
with Amsoil Synthetic Motor Oil and Gear Lube.
__________________________________________________
BigBlue QC states:
"I have had perfect luck with AMSOIL ATF in my trans, it has been in the truck for 60000 miles, tested twice, with perfect results each time. Good luck. 14 quarts for a complete flush, another 1-1/2 quarts if you have a 4x4 for the transfer case, which you have to drain and re-fill. You will need a pump for the transfer case to re-fill. If you bought whatever you decide locally why can't you return whatever you don't open??? Having an extra 2 quarts on hand while doing this is not a bad thing as a just in case."
" ... the 14 quarts is with the tranny cooler as I have one also." "... it has been over a year since I changed the transfer case to AMSOIL ATF. I remember filling to the hole level and then buttoning it up. Haven't had any problems with it. I am a preferred customer for AMSOIL (I pay the $20/year to get the wholesale pricing) and I remember it is cheaper to get the bigger jugs of fluid, like 2-1/2 gallons, when you need larger quantities. 2-1/2 gallons is 10 quarts, if you got two of them it should be enough for the trans, transfer case, and power steering. Yes, I have changed the power steering fluid in my truck to AMSOIL ATF also(my year uses ATF+4 as the ps fluid) with no regrets."
__________________________________________________
Everyone Respects Larry of J&J Auto ... correct?
Here is Larry's quote from another thread (hope you don't mind Larry!)
Larry of J&J Auto stated:
"Amsoil Universal Trans fluid or the Chrysler ATF+4 are the only fluids we use in these trans at the shop.
I have been running it (Amsoil) in my trans for about 30,000 miles now, made the trans shift smother and run almost 30 degrees cooler. I also run it in my transfer case.
I run all Amsoil even the rear ends and grease it with the syn fortified with molly. Yes I have a trans temp guage in my truck also a nordask Air/Fuel meter on its own o2 so I can monitor my stroker very closely
The Amsoil runs very good in these transmissions."
Larry
J&J Auto
__________________________________________________
Thanks Larry!
You can Request a FREE Amsoil Catalog by clicking below.
Thank you and I would like to be your Amsoil Dealer of choice.
Steven Roark Amsoil Dealer #1061837 ( a.k.a. Amzoil Ams Oil AmXoil )
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
7/17/2005
17:26:43
| Amsoil ATF - Steven Roark Amzoil Dealer # 1061837
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zzark, ... as an example ...
2001 DODGE TRUCKS DAKOTA 3.9L 6-cyl VIN Code X
CAPACITIES
Engine, with filter..........4.0 quarts[1]
Cooling System, Initial Fill..........14.0 quarts
Automatic Transmission, 42RE Initial Fill..........4.0 quarts[2]
Automatic Transmission, 44RE Initial Fill..........4.0 quarts[2]
Automatic Transmission, 46RE Initial Fill..........4.0 quarts[2]
Automatic Transmission, A45RFE 4WD Initial Fill..........6.6 quarts[2][3]
Automatic Transmission, A45RFE 2WD Initial Fill..........5.5 quarts[4][5]
Automatic Transmission, Total Fill
42RE..........10.0 quarts
45RFE..........14.0 quarts
46RE..........10.0 quarts
Manual Transmission, NV1500..........4.6 pints
Manual Transmission, NV3500..........4.2 pints
Differential, C205F Front..........3.6 pints
Differential, with 7.25 ring gear Rear..........3.0 pints
Differential, with 8.25 ring gear Rear..........4.4 pints
Differential, with 9.25 ring gear Rear..........4.9 pints
Transfer Case,NV231..........2.5 pints
Transfer Case,NV242..........2.7 pints
1. After refill check oil level
2. With engine automatic transmission operating temperature, shift through all
gears. Check fluid level in NEUTRAL and add fluid
as needed.
3. DTC'S may be set , reset with DRB III, if necessary
4. With engine automatic transmission operating temperature, shift through all
gears. Check fluid level in NEUTRAL and add fluid
as needed.
5. DTC'S may be set , reset with DRB III, if necessary
TORQUES for all the DIY Guys
Oil Drain Plug.....25 ft-lbs
Transfer case
Fill Plug.....35 ft-lbs
Drain Plug.....35 ft-lbs
Manual Transmission AX-15
Fill Plug.....27 ft-lbs
Drain Plug.....27 ft-lbs
Manual Transmission NV3500
Fill Plug.....14-20 ft-lbs
Drain Plug.....14-20 ft-lbs
__________________________________________________
DISCLAIMER & TECHNICAL CONCERNS
Specifications contained on this website are based on manufacturers' information and were believed accurate at the time of publication. Always compare fluids and lubricants that were installed in the vehicle with those replacing them during service. Never install more fluid or lubricant than what is considered adequate according to gradients on dipstick or level of filler hole. Models introduced midyear may not have the same specifications as those produced earlier. This was provided for informational purposes only. Please refer to your owners manual for information.
__________________________________________________
You can request a FREE Amsoil Catalog by clicking the following link.
Thank you and I would like to be your Amsoil Dealer of choice.
Steven Roark Amsoil Dealer #1061837 ( a.k.a. Amzoil Ams Oil AmXoil )
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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