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Ozmodiar
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
18:11:53
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 Subject: Speeding Ticket Contest
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First off I would like to say that I don't want this to be a cop bashing thread. I think that what they do is a hard and underpaid thing to do.
Having said that, I feel that I should not have been given the ticket or at least been given a warning.
My case:
I drive a 2000 RTCC painted amber fire. It stands out from any other car. I have recently replaced my wheels and tires changing it from the stock dimensions of 255/55/R17 to 255/55/R18. This puts my speedometer showing a lower speed than what I am going. I believe it is about 4% off.
I was traveling down quite a hill traveling west on 522 in Western Washington. I was the middle of 3 cars in the left of two lanes. Sitting about 200 yards from the base of the hill was a State Patrol Officer. He was standing outside his vehicle checking people. The car in front of me was going faster than I was down the hill and the car behind me was close but not tailgating me. I had changed into that lane because at the base of the hill there is a shorter onramp where people frequently are not going the speed limit when entering the main lane. To avoid this, I had changed into the left lane on my way down that hill. The car infront of me had passed me going down the hill. At the base of the hill, I had not begun to slow down yet and the person who was infront of me was still going faster than I was. That car saw the officer and he was tracking the three group of cars at the base of the hill. As we got close, I glanced down at my speedometer and was like crap. I also knew that I was staying with the flow of traffic so I wasn't too worried because the jetta was flying down that hill. After passing the officer getting back into his car, I pulled over into the right lane as did the jetta infront of me. The car behind me continued speeding and went by me on my left. The officer had entered traffic and after a bit turned on his lights. Seeing this, the jetta started to pull over. Unsure of who he was after, I started to slow down after passing the jetta and pulled over in the shoulder. The officer went around the jetta and then pulled behind me and the jetta left.
The officer let me know said he pulled me over for speeding. I in a calm mood informed him that I was unsure to the speed I was going due to my new tires and wheels. He took my info back to his car and sat there for a while making me a ticket.
When he came back,he told me I was going 74 in a 60 and informed me that I had 15 days to respond based off of the three options. I then explained that I under stand that "ignorance is not an excuse" when it comes to the law in reguards to my tires. I then asked him why, my truck being the middle of 3 speeders at the base of the hill, was pulled over when the person infront of me was going faster than I was. He said that he couldn't get a lock on the jetta and I was the next one. There was no merging traffic that would have prevented him from locking on the jetta infront of me. I told him that I had never been pulled over and that I don't understand why I wouldn't be given a warning and explained why I was speeding.
I plan on contesting this and was wondering what I should do. Here are some thoughts I have wrote down:
1.) He never told me how fast I was going or asked me how fast I thought I was going before the ticket was done.
2.) He didn't ask or show me how fast I was going untill the ticket had been wrote.
3.) I was the middle car going slower than the person infront of me.
4.) I want to come off as screaming "Profiler" but my truck stands out.
5.) The jetta pulled over because he was obviously speeding infront of an officer.
What are your thoughts?
How should I go about this?
What should I ask for in court?
What should I bring?
Oz
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Oz
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
18:19:30
|  RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Was doing some reading and was wondering about how you can take a driving course to avoid the ticket going on your record. This is my first ever ticket.
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Jecht X
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
18:43:38
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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I would just say to the judge that yo uwas in the middle of the three cars and if the officer couldnt get a lock on the jetta but got a lock on you. he could then see that the jetta was going atleast as fast as you was. but using your tire size as an excuse was dumb. by telling him about your tires. you admited that you knew that the tire size was wrong and had affected the speedo. he then can say you knew about the wong tire size and was going to use it as an excuse to get out of the ticket.
he prob didint bother with the jetta becuase he couldnt get a lock and would be very hard to prove he was speeding in court. so the officer pulled you over because he locked on you.
I have heard of a person in atlanta it was in the news. he beat his ticket because he proved that the radar and laser guns was not accurate. he fought to have a test done and found almost all radar guns and laser guns was giving different readings. some was like 20MPH difference. needless to say he got out of the ticket.
as far as your case be polite in there and dont lose your temper. one thing my cousin who is a cop told me was that if you go in there with a chip on your shoulder. yo uwill lose before you even start. just use your honor and so on.basically kiss ass basically. and bring up the jetta infront of you and how he pulled over too but the cop didnt give him a ticket. this is about your only defense. and a good chance you might get out of it. but you was speeding and depends on the mood of the judge. better hope his wife or her husband didnt piss them off before he goes to work lol.
they dont have to show you the radar reading. yo uhave to ask to see the reading. I would ask the judge was the cop really reading my truck or another car. I would say unless there is a way to have a pic taken of the gun targeting you with the speed displayed in it. I would say how can you prove that speed reading was my truck. I would say there was alot of cars on the road and how can he say it was mine. worth a try =-)
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
19:12:55
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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You might be screwed but here's somethings you can do.
Use his own words against him, he couldn't get a lock on the jetta but did you truck? They are both about the same size. He can't guarantee he got you and not the jetta. Plead innocent take him to court, the officer will have to show up if you contest it. If he doesn't you win.
Indicate about the other vehicles. It's up to the officer to give a ticket or not. were all of the other vehicles cars? Point out you were singled out from the middle of a line of traffic because you were the only truck. Police are not allowed to "profile".
Request a copy the officers certification on the radar gun (some states require, your state may not) and the maintenance of the radar gun in question. They do require maintenance and if the gun has not been inspected / tested / maintained and it outside of it's window there is no way they can certify it's accuracy.
Don't mention the tires, if you change it from stock, it's your responsibility to ensure the speedomete is accurate. That's an excuse likey to hurt your case.
What are the 3 options? When i got a speeding ticket, It was driving 41 in a 35. A few hundred yards back was the speedlimit sign indicating the new speed limit was 35, down from 40. I paid the ticket, went on a deferment. I didn't get another ticket in that county (varies by state) and therefor that ticket never was put on my record. you said your record is clean?
- Dan M
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JMHO
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
19:13:07
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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It doesn't matter that the Jetta was going faster than you - you were both breaking the law by speeding. Yes, it was unfair that you were going slower and were still the one that got the ticket, but it's not going to get you out of a ticket in court just because someone else was going even faster. I don't see what difference it makes that he didn't tell you your speed until after writing the ticket, either...?
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acajunme2
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
19:21:24
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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in our state(LA) if you get a ticket you can pay 35 bucks and attend a defensive driving class of 8hrs and the ticket will NOT go onto your record.
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dakliftr
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
19:29:14
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Your best hope is that the cop will not come to the trial. I have beaten 3 out of 7 or so tickets this way. If you have an oportunity plead not guilty. You may have an option on the ticket to enter a not guilty plea without going to trial. The court will eventually assign a trial date. Your not going to win at trial unless the cop does not show. (About half the time they won't because it's a major pain in their butt) This is also why I do it. :) If all speeders used their constitutional right to be confronted by their accuser the volume of tickets would be 5% of what it is now and only the most serious cases would be ticketed. They are counting on the fact that 9 people out of 10 will just pay the fine to be done with it. If the cop shows, politely tell the judge that you will be willing to change your plea if the court will grant you a moment to make a Statement. Here you will make a non-accusing statement about why you should be granted leaniency. You may want to explain that your oversized tires through off your odometer and you have since had it calibrated and provide proof. (This is a great idea!). You won't have to confront the officer at all. If the judge tries to give you a hard time about excercising your right to a trial and dragging the officer off of his beat. Explain that you have a right to a trial and should hardly be made to feel bad about exercising it. (I did this verbatem and the judge agreed and moved on). When I did this in court the judge gave me a suspended fine and said he would clear the record if I had no citations in a year. Remember that there is only a 50% chance the cop will show and if he doe'snt you get off scott free. A couple pointers dress nice! not rich nice, just respectful nice. May I suggest a tie? Respect the court and the officer. If you think your going to bash anyone you may as well have mailed the check for the full bail. I have had probably 11-13 tickets in the past 20 years I've been driving and have only had about 6 on my record.
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Kowalski
GenIII
4/22/2005
19:38:15
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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It may well matter that the Jetta was going faster than you were. Laser can differentiate between cars, but its my understanding that radar can only measure the faster vehicle. Unless he was running laser (you need to find out), you stop talking about your tires, and simply say you only know you weren't going as fast as the traffic you were traveling with. I think this limitation about radar is spelled out on Valentine's website - the best radar detector on the market.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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GB2000
GenIII
4/22/2005
19:38:34
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Your excuse that you were just going with the flow of traffic won't fly...my grandpa tried that when he was younger. He told me the cop said, "Ever been fishing? You can't catch every fish in the lake."
The thing about profiling might fly, but you're gonna need a way to prove it since it'll be your word against the cop's.
I don't believe they're required to ask you how fast you think you were going or tell you how fast you were going before the ticket, but you do have the right to ask to see your speed on the radar gun and as far as I know they are required to show you.
Just because you were the middle car going slower than the front car doesn't mean anything...you were still speeding. I've found they normally go after the followers rather than the leader of the group.
Honestly it sounds like you got caught in a speed trap and there was nothing you could have said or done to get out of the speeding ticket. I think your best bet is if the officer doesn't show up and the ticket gets dropped. Also sometimes the judge/prosecutor/whoever handles that stuff finds an error on the ticket and drops it before asking to hear either side of the story...that happened to a friend of mine after he got a speeding ticket while on his moped a couple years ago.
Josh Blackshire - Owner, Ohio Dakotas .NET
Red 98 Dakota Sport - Check it out!
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Justi
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
19:42:13
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Hey Oz, you ever been fishing? Assuming your answer is yes, my next question.. Have you ever caught ALL of the fish in the lake?
Bottom line is that you were breaking the law and you were caught. I'm absolutely POSITIVE that had the Jetta been pulled over he would be sitting in vwjetta.com right night with a quite similar story to yours. "But the truck that was closing up being me wasn't pulled over, he slowed for the cop to so how can I get a ticket if he didn't".
My guess is that your less than 18 years old, and if you're not, then I recommend you act your age. There are ramification for every single action you make, be prepared to deal with them. 99% of the time if you speed you won't get caught. But that leaves a 1% risk that the 5min you save by speeding will cost you a ticket. It just cost you a ticket.
And honestly, I don't know why I'm even offering you this advice, but.. If you REALLY want a chance of any kind to get out of this do the following. Go get your speedometer calibrated for your new tires and save the work order/reciept. Take that with you to court, be very apoligetic and show that you've corrected the problem. That is taking responsibility for it and showing an attempt to make it better.
That said, 4% off with the bigger tires eh? That's less than 3MPH difference, so that would only drop you to 71mph, still 11mph over the speed limit.
And no, I'm not a cop...
Justi
My Dakota Page
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another mark
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2005
19:59:44
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Ridiculous he couldn't get a lock on the Jetta. Well the Jetta was going faster than you, he sounds like the better ticket to me. He nailed you because you have a flashy truck plain and simple. I have one too and feel your pain. I've been pulled over several times but always let off.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
4/22/2005
21:26:08
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Radar locks onto ther STRONGEST signal. which is a REFLECTION of his generated signal. (Then using the doppler effect it measures speed by a small change in frequency from the original signal).
The larger/closest vehicle USUALLY gives the strongest signal.
Mack Truck vs. Jetta. Yeah. Speed measured for mack truck.
To test this. Find one of those little portable speed signs they leave on the side of the road just to flash your speed as you drive by. of course finding one where you have two or more lanes is a must.
With it being on the RIGHT side of the road nave a friend drive something as bog or bigger than you and stay in the right lane.
Just as he is approaching it fly by him in the left lane.
The damn thing will lock onto his vehicle and not yours. I've done this to mess around many times. sometimes going 20 MPH over the limit to see it simply display the pwrson giving the strongest Signal (reflection).
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
4/22/2005
21:28:32
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Oh yeah. From what I've witnessed, many cops using LASER will stand OUTSIDE their vehicle unless they have a clear and direct shot form their seat.
With the laser they have a little window to look through like a camera. They CAN pick you out between other vehicles.
The negative thing for them is they just can;t leave the LASE one running in the dash as they drive like the Hi Way Po Po's can do with RADAR.
If that cop was standing OUTSIDE his car, he was probably using LASER.
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dakkid
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2005
02:09:00
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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i know how you feel. i got a ticket last year and hated it. i didn't want to fool with going to court and fighting it so i just paid the ticket and went to a court referral traffic school. never even had to go downtown to the courthouse. i took the 4 hr (this is in alabama, btw) course and it's not on my record now. the only complaint i had with it is you have to really stay on the school for processing your information, down here anyways. it was only about a week or so after my scheduled court-date that they sent me a postcard with a new date and that i would be arrested if i didn't show this time. that pissed me off so i called the school, gave them a bit of a hard time about it, they apologized, and then they cleared it up. i wish i had payed attention to my speedo more so i could know exactly what i was making, going downhill also. but i think some woman got pissed at me for missing a gear and making her get stuck behind a dump-trcuk, so she called me in. she had already flipped me off. anyway, the cop was going the opposite direction from me, lights already on and he was making about 60 himself. that's the only thing that irks me about it. i don't see how he could read my vehicle when going that fast, and in the opposite direction. oh well, if i was you, i would look into the referal school or try to argue it. good luck with it.
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Dan
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2005
03:40:25
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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I was activated for the national guard for 2 yrs in which I did security/law enforcement on a military base. We had radar guns and I had the chance to use some of them. When you practice a little, you can pick out the vehicle you are trying to even if they are 3 wide. When you are sweeping the vehicles you will get three different readings and then you can determine which one. If you start from one side and go for the person you (the cop) considers too far over the limit then you will get one reading, then move onto the next and so on. there is a good chance that the cop decided that he wanted to give your truck a ticket and he did. Of course the bottom line is: You were speeding, the cop got you on radar and now it is time to pay the piper. Think of how many times you have been speeding before and did not get caught. Come on, you have an RT, that means you have done your share of speeding, feel lucky you got caught on this one and not when you were pushing 100mph.
Dan
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mikec041
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2005
13:50:24
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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GraphiteDak
It's called shadowing. Thats why morons drive in your blind spots on highways.
I know in NYS speeding is based on the cops speed estimate (for which they're certified) and that estimate maybe backed by radar/laser/spedo. But ultimately conviction is based on their speed estimate.
If you monitor enough traffic you can guesstimate within 2 mph actual speed of a car.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
4/23/2005
17:21:52
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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It is crazy. I've went to court and listened to them Po Po's begin with the certification speeches on how they can "estimate your speed" etc.
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ZZ
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2005
21:26:06
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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A cop's 2 eyes are NOT calibrated instruments. If they were, there would be no reason to use radar or laser.
I would invest in a new Valentine One radar/laser detector. The best on the market. It has arrows to tell you which direction the radar/laser signals are coming from.
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Bubble
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2005
00:34:36
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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That whole thing (the original post) STINKS. Why don't cops ever use their God-given powers of reasoning to make sound decisions? If the Dakota was clocked going 74, and if the Jetta was visibly going faster than the Dakota, the Jetta was most definitely going over 74. That's even more basic than high school physics. It's more like 2nd or 3rd grade mathematics.
As if the cop is going to show up at court with his radar detector anyway. Does the thing take a photo of the vehicle it is measuring? If I were a cop, I'd exercise my scruples, ticket the Jetta and tell the judge that I HAD locked on the Jetta. Justice would be served.
I'm sure the vast majority of police officers are out there risking their lives to make me safe and I never hear about it, or benefit indirectly from them. But a few times when bad things have happened, and I was on the right side of the law and really needed a cop to back me up, they have consistently let me down.
PS Lots of times in court, lawyers will ask how recently the radar detector was calibrated and in what manner it was tested. Ask your questions in a really honest manner. Sound like you are genuinely interested in the answer and aren't just asking the question to challenge the cop's statements.
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skiman
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2005
02:35:19
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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has anyone yet to call this lamer on being full of crap that the speedo is NOT going to be off with the same exact size tire.. who cares 17 or 18... overall height remains the same
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GB2000
GenIII
4/24/2005
04:21:52
| RE: Speeding Ticket Contest
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Actually skiman...
there is a 3.6% difference.
http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html Try it for yourself.
Josh Blackshire - Owner, Ohio Dakotas .NET
Red 98 Dakota Sport - Check it out!
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