| From | Message |
g-forced.com
Dodge Dakota
8/08/2001
11:53:57
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 Subject: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
would you like a under the hood ram air system
go to www.g-forced.com
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kota on 20s
Dodge Dakota
8/08/2001
12:24:05
|  RE: Ram Air
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Message:
that is a pretty nice setup. how much is the cost, and is there any dyno figures on it? what is the 1/4 mile times with it?
Eric
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CyberWolf
Dodge Dakota
8/08/2001
13:26:54
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Hey y'all. This is the ram air system that I was telling you about. The one for the 4.7 will be quite a bit different looking of course. Its in the works currently and should be pretty awsome. Guice is pretty cool, he'll make a system for just about anything. He's also looking at making an X-brace to compete with the Kenny Brown.
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G-Forced
Dodge Dakota
8/08/2001
15:36:17
| RE: Ram Air
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Message:
Hey Eric
The system works like any other ram air system depending on how much air is being forced at the time more air = more power up to a point. the other factor is cool air the cooler thr air the more O2 the bigger the bang. other systems are good but any time you can get true out side air your going to get cooler air and if you catch the air and force it into a motor you will get better gas milage and more power. All the trucks that have the system on them have reported a .2 to .4 tenths faster 1/4 mile times and 1.5-2.5 more mpg on fuel. I build to order and the units will not be shiped till paid in full the cost is $ 349.95 and that comes with every thing.
Thanks Guice Mercer
lets kick some blue ovel butt!
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koz
Dodge Dakota
8/08/2001
16:00:57
| RE: Ram Air
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Message:
FYI: Intense Performance is making a similar setup with a K&N-type washable, reusable filter element. It's less than $250 for the Stage III kit ("ram air"). I put one on my Dak ('00 5.9L QC) and I've seen the 2 mpg improvement and I'm firmly convinced that this also eliminated my knock. Not to "shoot" or "push" any particular product, just letting the rest of the gang know that there are other options.
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CyberWolf
Dodge Dakota
8/08/2001
16:19:33
| RE: Ram Air
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Message:
The G-Forced systems also use a K&N. The Intense Performance Stage III is not ram air. It is cold air. There is a huge difference. Their web site doesn't even claim it to be ram air. Guice has done a lot of testing to assure that he is getting the max psi at the lowest speed.
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Manuel
Dodge Dakota
8/08/2001
19:39:13
| RE: Ram Air
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Message:
Koz, where does the stage III draw air from? I went to the website and I really couldn't see. I also looked at the g-forced ram air. I think I'd be afraid of water getting in there and stalling my truck.
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DAK2
Gen III
8/08/2001
20:42:02
|  RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
If you would really think about it which cold air induction kit does not have the possibility
of getting water into the intake?
Shaker - in the open
hood snouts - -in the open
FIPK - by removing rubber piece next to radiator
in the open
Ztube - same as FIPK
etc.
If any of you are old enough look back into late 60's early 70's and you'll find similar setups
with similar questions including the 442 with
the ram air scoops under front bumper
My $.002
Y2K DAK 3.9L 5 Spd OS/2 Keeps going&going&going
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bernd
Gen III
8/09/2001
01:10:07
| RE: Ram Air
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Message:
Guice,
At what speed does the Ram-Air effect take place with your system what's the pressure differential at that speed (along with the boost recorded)?
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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bjlindsey
Gen III
8/09/2001
04:21:05
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
If you could only inject a little alcohol in w/ that rain, you'd REALLY have something. (Based on many hours in a turboprop airplane that needed ANY kind of boost!!!)
'01 QC 4x4 5.9L 3.92 LSD K&N FIPK Clone Truck Tec bed cover
www.FreeGasForYou.com
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Manuel
Dodge Dakota
8/09/2001
09:52:01
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks Bernd, I was wondering about that, but didn't know quite how to ask it.
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G-FORCED
Dodge Dakota
8/09/2001
14:35:09
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Bernd,
The system will start to build psi at 20mph but remember that if a throttle body only moves 650 cfm then any thing higher than that will slow down. Yes, you can force more air into it but to get a true boost you get into blowers. Without the tools to measure a true boost I would compare it to about 1.5 lb of boost and understand that that is just an estimate.
Thanks,
Guice
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Brian Gaarder
Dodge Dakota
8/09/2001
15:28:58
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Ok... here is a stupid question...
I have head people talking about fake Ram-Air and True Ram-air. can someone show me the diffrence?
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bjlindsey
Gen III
8/09/2001
16:09:20
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Any one ever heard of or tried this electronic supercharger?
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/eramdsc.htm?AOLHelp=991504533.747.345.1&ServerName=www.electricsupercharger.com
'01 QC 4x4 5.9L 3.92 LSD K&N FIPK Clone Truck Tec bed cover
www.FreeGasForYou.com
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koz
Dodge Dakota
8/09/2001
16:39:41
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
I used "ram air" in quotes to say that I said it was *like* ram air, not that anyone at Intense Performance claims it (sorry). Anyway, in my '00 QC, I achieve the "ram air" effect by first removing the rubber flap, then by taking the cold air kit's flex hose and jamming it between the radiator fill tank and an a/c line (which I have to "coax" over with a slight bend). This was not the recommended procedure for the '00 Daks, but it worked for me. I have set up a trap-like shape to the flex hose as to not let water directly into the filter (although I haven't quite figured out how that would really hurt since it's only a cotton filter with oil on it - I mean, you actually clean the filter with water...).
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Kris239
Gen II
8/09/2001
20:34:20
|  RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
OH!OH!OH! Bernd, can I answer part of that? Ahh, I recall (from months ago) you saying that the "true" ram air affect does not occur to anything but top fuel dragsters going 250-300mph. Which still is hardly any boost, the "correct" term is "cold-air induction". I don't know if I'm right or not but who cares.
Kris Harnack
1994 Dodge Dakota SLT
3.9L V6 / RC / SB / Auto
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bernd
Gen III
8/09/2001
22:31:44
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Yup...I had a dual eRam on my truck a long time ago. It's made 1psi boost at WOT...kinda expensive though. The single eRam makes .5psi boost at ANY speed (WOT operation only though) and pushes 750cfm of air. It actually does move a firelog around the garage floor...I tried it.
Now...first and foremost, unless you're driving over 100mph, you will see NO boost at all from any Ram-Air system unless it's designed for the vehicle and has NO obstructions, no rough edges, and no sharp or non-smooth bends.
Second, Top-Fuel dragsters are making close to 1psi boost just from their scoops (not including the 20+ from the Blower)...at 350+mph...not 20mph. What you have there is a Cold Air Induction intake system...no boost whatsoever.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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Doug
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
02:52:45
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Bjlindsey, Can you say Fairchild Metro?
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CyberWolf
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
09:54:19
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Bernd, I have to disagree when you say that there is no such thing as a true ram air and that this is only a cold air. A cold air doesn't feed more to the throttle body than what it needs. All it would take to make it ram air is to feed more to the throttle body than what it needs. As he said anything over the throttle body cfm would start to build psi. He also said that to get a true boost you get into stuff like blowers. I don't know much about what psi is what but I do know that 1000 cfm to something that can only flow 500 will build psi. This may not be the same as a top fuel ram air system but these are Dakotas not top fuel dragsters.
Also, I dont know what a top fuel dragster flows cfm wise with its blowers but I imagine it is probably 2500 or higher. That means that to build any psi you would have to "ram" over 2500 cfm to the carbs. I could see where that would be tough to do. These Daks only flow around 650 cfm. "Ramming" 1000 cfm of air is probably a lot easier than "ramming" 3500 cfm of air.
Third, these systems are specifically designed for the vehicle. These systems have no obstructions, no rough edges, and the bends are smooth. If you look at the picture on his web site you can see the 2 scoops and the air box. This picture shows dryer hose and this is not recommended. This was the only picture he had at the moment. That is not the normal way it is done.
Disclaimer:
I'm not connected to G-Forced in any way and I'm not answering for Guice. I met him and saw the system and was immediately interested. He has a lot of knowledge about this stuff from a lot of experience but my answer came from my knowledge not his.
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g-forced
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
09:57:47
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Any time you take out side air and force it into a motor you will get more HP. Now if everyone cannot see that other systems except the int. stage III is doing nothing but giving a half a#@ cold air system that only starts really working at highway speeds then by all means go get one. But if you want a system that will give you true ram and out side air even when you are at a stop or sitting at the line to race then I got one for you. Every system that I have sold the people sold there other aftermarket systems and said that thay didnt realise the diffrence it makes.
You can not say you have fresh air unless you import the air from out side the truck. Yes removing the flap helps and some people have built better boxes to seal off the area for this affect.
And why do you think Int. stage III was built because thay see the same thing that I do.
Bottom line the colder the air and the more you can get into the motor the more HP you will get.
Thanks Guice
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g-forced
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
10:12:21
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Hey Berned
Talk to Randy and see what he has to say He saw it at the R/T nats.
Also ya know Kerry Knowel that has the 2000 solar rc he has the system on his truck see what he has to say and if you would like I may be able to send you one to try. or let me know when you are comming to the Dallas area I would like to meet you any way. Also talk to Bruce at F&B he wants one. and saw it at the R/T nats.
Thanks Guice Mercer
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Sean
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
12:40:39
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Could I get the number to g-forced please?Thanks
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CyberWolf
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
13:01:45
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
www.g-forced.com
972-463-3075
Guice Mercer
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bernd
Gen III
8/10/2001
20:05:59
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Guice...
I did (and still do) talk to Randy about your system and it sounds very nice. However, there is no way that you can get any type of "boost" (by conventional usage of the term) with that type of system.
Even the "Ram Air" systems on the GM's don't produce any boost...what they do is collect the cooler air from the outside which helps build more power...nothing else.
Nothing personal against you in any way...but the comment: "But if you want a system that will give you true ram and out side air even when you are at a stop or sitting at the line to race then I got one for you. "....no way is there going to be any type of "Ram Air" at all sitting at a stop.
Don't get me wrong here...It's a very nice designed intake system, but only a form of cold air induction...not a true "Ram Air" in the sense that it's meant for.
----------------------
A Ram air device can provide a form of forced induction but only when the car is traveling at a higher speed. Air is forced into the engine/manifold through a ram air inlet which is usually located on the top of air bonnet. That creates a slightly higher pressure than normally aspirated.
In fact, you can see ram air devices whenever you watch motor racing. The air box in every formula 1 race cars and the roof air inlet of GT race cars are all ram air devices.
Formula 1 engineers claim that a typical air box can gain 20 horse power when the car is running at 200 kph (that's 124mph).
Ram Air has been popular for a long time with differing levels of effectiveness. In the past it was used on carb equipped cars but could cause more problems than any benefit it gains. As the mixture strength varies not only by throttle opening but is also dependant on speed and hence how much Air is being rammed down it.
-------------------------
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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kota on 20s
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
20:13:49
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
so which will give more power, the k&n fipk II or the g-force?
im thinking the g-force will, but is it worth the extra $120
Eric
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bernd
Gen III
8/10/2001
21:17:04
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Most any of the aftermarket intakes will give you more power...cooler air makes more power.
My bet is that they're all within 5HP of each other which doesn't make any difference on the street (or track)...5HP isn't close to as much as driver error.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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kota on 20s
Dodge Dakota
8/10/2001
22:09:11
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
when speaking of intakes, headers, PCM's and such each is making about 5 HP of eachother. sure 5 HP may not help you win a race if you have a driver error, but if you get the best of everything that ads up to + - 15HP. that might over take the error and help you win.
The thing that im conserned about is, is winning a race worth the extra $$$ you spend on getting the better mod.
ERic
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bernd
Gen III
8/11/2001
00:19:31
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
You can't take the seperate mods and combine them into one final figure...that's not how they work.
5HP + 5HP + 10HP does not equal 20HP.
They compliment each other and may increase by a certain percentage, but not the total combined.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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bernd
Gen III
8/11/2001
00:23:04
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Guice:
At the show, you had claimed that you were able to run .4 quicker consistently in the 1/4 mile with your system. This is just about on par with other intake systems and does show that yours works.
Did you ever get any Dyno tests performed with and without your intake system? (On either your truck or any others?) I still am interested in your system...not trying to beat it up...just need more info.
I'll be in Houston at the HMCC event (October 6th-7th). You going?
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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CyberWolf
Dodge Dakota
8/11/2001
12:47:16
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Bernd, I looked back at the quote "But if you want a system that will give you true ram and out side air even when you are at a stop or sitting at the line to race then I got one for you." He doesn't mean ram air at a stop. He means two different things:
1. a system that will give you true ram
2. a system that will give you out side air even when you are at a stop or sitting at the line to race.
I just thought I would point that out. All of us know that you must have speed to get any sort of ram effect.
Dyno:
Sure, a dyno will show the same gains as any cold air system. A dyno can NOT show any gains from a ram air system unless a wind tunnel is involved.
Again, I don't know a lot about boost but common sense tells me that when you can collect enough air at a given speed you will get a "ram" effect. I define a "ram" effect as giving the throttle body more air than what it normally sucks. I still don't understand how you can not consider this "ram air". Fact is, more air than what the throttle body sucks would start to build psi. I don't know how much but any at all would be considered a "ram" effect. I agree that it will mostly be used as a cold air system becuase your speed is not always high enough to gain the "ram" effect. Even if it starts building psi at 50 mph you still have 40-50 mph left to go on a 1/4 mile track. I'm looking at it as a fancy cold air system with a ram air bonus.
I'm still not answering for Guice. I'm arguing this because I have seen the system and it seems to me that it will work as a ram air system.
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bernd
Gen III
8/11/2001
14:42:25
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
There's no quesition about the ram effect, but what most think is that this means "Boost". That's just not the case.
Cold Air Induction is a more proper term for it.
I'll just sit back and wait for the results.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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Billybob
Dodge Dakota
8/11/2001
18:44:04
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
berned one thing you are forgetting in your arguement about the F1 turbo cars is that the turbo charger also acts as an air intake restriction device. Take a high pressure/high volume air device and place it in front of your stationary vehicle while it is on the dyno and with a 50 mph wind pressing on the intake you will show an increase of around 10 hp on a NORMALY asperated V6 at wot and 4500rpm. With a turbo engine or a supercharger you might be lucky to show 2hp at wot and 4500 rpm. Why??? you forgot about the wastegate that limits boost!!!!
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bjlindsey
Gen III
8/11/2001
18:49:34
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Doug...you ruined me!!!!
Any one ever heard of or tried this electronic supercharger?
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/eramdsc.htm?AOLHelp=991504533.747.345.1&ServerName=www.electricsupercharger.com
'01 QC 4x4 5.9L 3.92 LSD K&N FIPK Clone Truck Tec bed cover
www.FreeGasForYou.com
www.FreeBeer4u.com
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Billybob
Dodge Dakota
8/11/2001
18:51:06
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
I also am showing 2-3 lbs boost vrs. a large level of vacuum at 70 mph at wot with a homebrew intake setup in the opening between the radiater and the headlights. How do I know that is what I am getting? I put a boost gage in the manifold.
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bjlindsey
Gen III
8/11/2001
18:53:08
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
THE ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM IS HERE.
It's called:
TM
Patent Pending
GLOBAL SEAL has developed a true axial flow electric supercharger. They have installed the eRAM electric supercharger on V8s through 4 cylinder engines and have made multiple runs on a chassis dyno (Dynojet 248e) with and without the eRAM supercharger on the engine and have seen successful results. Gains were up to 10HP for an average increase of 4-6%!
Unlike some aftermarket filters and filters with intake tubes that claim to both reduce restriction and give up to 4 HP, the electric supercharger is a proven way to reduce restriction and actually supercharge for gains over and above that of intake modifications.
There is typically no need to adjust mixture, the AFM (Air Fuel Meter) or MAF (Mass Air Flow) and computer can handle the small increase in mass air flow. Installation is easy, usually involving removing part of the air box, or just attaching the fan to the inlet of the air box. (The OEM filter or K/N replacement can remain). A 3 inch rubber adapter tube attaches the small eRAM fan to the air box or after market intake tube. Electrical control is simple. A NOS style microswitch, 50-amp relay, activated only at full throttle gives the boost when you need it.
The eRAM slightly pressurizes the air box using a high powered electric motor driven axial flow fan running at 22,000 RPM at 3.5 " in diameter. The inlet air box is pressurized to approximately 1/2 psi, from what is usually a slight VACUUM of typical stock boxes which restrict air flow. Even using cool air induction tubes with filters, a vacuum of up to 1/2 psi (1 inch mercury), has been measured with stock air boxes and induction tubes at wide open throttle between 4500 to 7000 rpm. This is like running your car at 1500-ft altitude, which is a big power loss! You need to remove this restriction to gain the HP.
A 3 liter engine draws about 320 CFM at 6000 rpm. The fan has to produce that airflow at a 1/2psi pressure. To do this, with all the inefficiencies of flow and restriction, about 700 watts is needed. This is less than 1 hp of electrical energy required at 13 volts drawing about 50 amps. This gives a net 4-6% HP gain at the driven wheels, which is maintained throughout the HP curve. It's not peaky like a cam or header, but constant from end to end.
The eRAM gives a HP increase that is like running your car with direct ram air at 160 mph. The eRAM is designed for low duty cycle use and therefore is on only when you are at full throttle. (A small micro switch on the accelerator linkage or gas pedal, routes battery power to the fan unit.) Current draw is equal to that of a high performance stereo, and it is only on for a few seconds. On the racetrack at Laguna Seca, it is typically on for 30 seconds of 1:50 second lap. At Sears Point, a more technical track, it was on much less, running for 20 seconds during a 2:00 lap. On the track for testing, it was tough to run it for more than 7 or 8 seconds at a time.
All cars, except Indy and dragsters, have a number of problems in getting cool air to the intake system. The NACA ducts and ram air intakes attempt to provide cool air to the air filter box mounted on the top of the engine with a design to reduce overall drag, not pressure. In some installations, after all of the right angle turns, passing over radiators and other flow disturbances, its amazing that cars have as much power as they do. Basic aerodynamics dictate that when air is channeled through turns and bends in our intakes without veins, efficiency losses are tremendous. Don't be fooled by ram air suggestions. Even a highly efficient hood scoop out of the boundary layer of air flow like a dragster, is really only effective above 80 mph.
The eRAM is a proven, cost effective way to increase HP. At under $300 dollars, it is a bargain compared with other means of "Bolt on HP".
'01 QC 4x4 5.9L 3.92 LSD K&N FIPK Clone Truck Tec bed cover
www.FreeGasForYou.com
www.FreeBeer4u.com
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jimmeyjack
Dodge Dakota
8/11/2001
19:12:01
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
F1 cars dont have forced induction billybob.
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Billybob
Dodge Dakota
8/11/2001
22:06:47
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
jimmyjack yes they do. the big hole in the body work just above and just behind the drivers head is used just for that. If you are refering to no turbo or super charger you are again wrong as they ALL run with a turbocharger limited to 22 inches of boost, have been for over 40 years. Boy the people that open there keyboards with little or no knowledge amazes me.
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Billybob
Dodge Dakota
8/11/2001
22:09:19
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
only the IRL runs without a turbocharger these days
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bernd
Gen III
8/12/2001
13:23:59
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
BillyBob is correst...F1 cars DO have Turbo's on them.
On the wastegate, that point is moot since we don't have a Turbo for our vehicles (that's readily available).
On the eRam, Mark's system works very well (Mark Kibort - eRacing). I ran a Dual eRam for quite some...made 1psi boost on the Autometer gauge.
2-3psi boost at 70mph without any type of "Forced Induction" (aka: Turbo/Supercharger), no way...no how.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged @ 10#
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jimmeyjack
Dodge Dakota
8/12/2001
17:46:33
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
I stand corrected, sorry billybob. Maybe someday if keep trying i will be faultless like you your Lordship.
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g-forced.com
Dodge Dakota
8/13/2001
10:59:19
| RE: Ram Air
IP: Logged
Message:
Hey Berned
I do hope to be there in Houston.
Also I think that this has been a good subject for everyone. Lets look at the WS6 or the SS.
I dont think that GM would claim on the hood of the WS6 Ram air if that was only a cold air induction.
Also if you look at the G-Forced system you will see that it runs stright into the intake and also note that in that pic. the guy didn't wait and use the hose that I recomend.
With this system you are getting two openings that are 3" each, more space = more air.
Other systems are only using one 3" or 4" opening also on the coment earler about getting ram at a stop, what I ment was that you get outside air. If you have a system that pulls in underhood air at a stop your cpu will adjust to the higher temps right? So with the G-Forced system you dont have the cpu adjusting to the air change. When your at the track that time for the cpu to adjust could cost you .1 in your time maby. Even if the cpu adjust faster it still needs to adjust, adjustments = time and every .001 matters. I know because at Daytona when I was with the Winston cup team we didn't make the race because of .001 of a sec. When you pull up next to someone you want all the advantage you can get even if your the best driver out there every .001 counts.
And Berned your right you can't compare a ram air system to boost but it will create a pos. pressure and that gives you ram air.
If your TB can only move 650cfm and your putting 1500 or 2000cfm to it it will be a pos. pressure system.
Thanks Guice G-Forced.com
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