Union Workers - Death of America

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Slow4x4Dak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 04:33:53	Subject: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Unions are awful. My father is a Superintendent at Berkel & Company www.berkelandcompany.com . They are a piledriving company, which works with Auger Cast Piledriving. I work summers for him to pay for my college, and I work with mostly non union people. However, I did go to about 5 jobs that had union workers, and 1 of our foreman are union workers. Here's the payscale: N/U = Non Union 1. laborer N/U (me) $15/hr (+$60 a day per diem for out of town work...which was everyday because I lived 3hrs from the jobs) 1b. Apprentice (laborer) U $23.50/hr (same per diem) 1c. Piledriver ("skilled" laborer) $34.50 U (+ per diem) 2. Foreman $22.50 hr N/U ($75 per diem) 2b. Journeyman (foreman) $43.50 U ($60 per diem) 3. Pump or Backhoe or Bobcat Operator $22.50 hr N/U ($75 per diem) 3b. Operator $38.50 U ($60 per diem) 4. Crane Operators $38-45 hr All Union Now these are east coast based wages, mainly Maryland, Delaware, Philly and New York. The Maryland union wages are lower, those are the NY/Philly/Delaware. The union workers also get a $12 pay raise for their benefits/vacation/retirement. Now those are the differences in pay, I'll tell you the differences in job skills. Laborers/Apprentices/Piledrivers - Do anything, lift anything, sometimes use a torch, mainly use a "dipper" which pulls concrete out of a hole. Then move a piece of rebar (steel) ranging from 12' to 60' into the hole. Anything over 25' we use the cranes assistance to set. Also includes preparation of the steel (tie some together with wire). Messy job, and almost always outdoors. Foreman/Journeymen - Tell the laborers what to do. Tell the crane operator where to position the crane in order to drill the next hole. Count the strokes of concrete going into hole. Set up the order of holes to be drilled. Fix any problems that goes wrong with crane, or the concrete hoses. Usually consists of the drill big plugging up (concrete comes through bit, at the bottom of the hole). Sometimes climb to top of crane (10 - 60 ft usually 10) to fix problems with gearbox. Pump operator - Pull a switch, back concrete trucks up with signals, keep hopper filled with concrete. Backhoe operator - move spoils from 1 spot to another Crane operator - Actually earns his pay, as it takes skill to manuever our old cranes and set the leads straight (keeps hole straight). Difference between a Union job and a N/U Job: N/U - 2-3 laborers, 1 foreman, 1 pump operator, 1 crane operator, 1 backhoe operator, 1 superintendent U - 4 laborers (1 just raking rocks off the pump from concrete trucks), 1 journeyman, 1 pump operator, 1 backhoe, 1 crane, 1 Master Mechanic, + a Berkel Mechanic, 1 superintendent Now I pulled in around $850 a week after taxes, 1100 - 1300 gross as just a laborer. Usually 43-50 hrs a week. I feel I was overpaid for my duties, as there is usually a 5 minute pause of doing nothing per hole (20 - 50 holes a day). This job takes no skill, all the union hall offers is some useless school that gives them basically no training. Anytime Berkel comes to town, people love to work here because it's an easy job. I could go into detail about the welding union, or even the carpentry unions because my father was a member of both at 1 time. Unions overly pay their workers, and if you don't use them in new york they literally will wreck your jobsite. We've had hydraulic lines cut due to problems with workers doing nothing. There's also "The Revolution" to deal with, which is a gang that comes to construction sites and if you don't hire 1 of their members, they will wreck your site. The job can be done by anybody and we use berkel employees anytime we can. When we go to new york, we manage 8-12 piles a day, down in maryland we get 20. They slow the jobs up purposely to make their jobs last longer, because they know they aren't with a **** and won't have another job for a while. The downfall of America is the amount of skill people don't want to learn. If you are going to be a laborer, factory worker or anything...at least become faster than the chinese at it. The best workers we've ever had were mexicans; they don't complain, sometimes show up late, and can outwork me anyday... I was one of the best laborers at berkel because my father was the superintendent. The mexicans were in the Union and it didn't bother me 1 bit, because they were worth it. As you can see, I feel strongly about unions. They were a good concept until they began to be abused. The berkel employees get stuff done right, and always faster than union. Only time we hire union is when it's mandatory. I go to college for Business Administration, and I double major for Computer science. Sorry for the long post, but if Americans weren't lazy workers who feel they should get paid 2x more than anybody because they went to some school which relates to elementary school...then they might not get outsourced to better workers. -Joseph E. Miles
Slow4x4Dak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 04:41:32	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: The above post was in the Wal-Mart thread, but I decided to make a new post about it. I hope some of you who are either involved with unions, or have any type of legitimate opinion on them will reply. The only union people I see worth their money are crane operators. Most of the union workers (if not all) get double pay overtime, whereas non union get time and a half. Also, with construction...some jobs are required to be union (federal a lot), so they are able to hold up your job by not working if you don't hire the people they want. This does not refer to ALL unions, I have seen ironworkers well worth their money. If you look at all the carpenters on big construction jobs, many of them are mexican. I'm just saying it how I've seen it. If you're union and you feel you deserve your money, please state your SKILL and how you are better than anybody else at it. Union workers are considered SKILLED workers, yet I have only seen few considered skilled. Most are either 25 year old kids, or 45 year old men who are tired of their jobs and actually get paid to sleep. We've had our backhoe operators actually sit in their cars while we run the backhoe because they just couldn't move fast enough. We also hire union backhoe operators frequently, because it's hard to find people willing to travel as much as we do. Berkel jobs usually last a month, 3 months tops.
dakotaowner01 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 05:48:59	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Please put this in the off-topic as these discusions bring out the worst in peeps.
KingKota2001 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 07:01:31	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: You should see what the unionization of healthcare workers is doing to your healthcare costs.
Dex Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 07:21:48	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Ya'll should read a little history of the labor movement in this country. Take a historical view of this topic - not just today. I'm not saying that unions are the be all and end all. But I'm saying that they are useful to the worker and the USA. This is a big topic - too big for this board. But a couple of notes: 1. People died for the right to unionize - they did this because they were treated unfairly by management. 2. The vast majority of union workers are in the service industry - hotel maids, Los Vegas dealers, supermarket grocery clerks. 3. The number of unionized workers are decreasing since its high in the early 1960s 4. Many of non unionized benefits came first from union worker shops - pensions, health care benefits. Other companies adopted these benefits to keep their workers. We now see benefits decreasing in every field. 5. The great middle class has developed since WWII with the help of unions. Since, they were paid well they were able to save, buy homes and put their children through college. Is the decline of the middle class partically due to the decline in the % of union workers? 6. Unions are needed when management does not treat workers well There are many other benefits of unions. The exteam numbers listed here are just that extream not all unions are like that. Unions are losing their power and will continue to do so over time. Will the USA be better off because of this - no. Poorly paid people need more government help - foodstamps, tax breaks, government supported housing, government supported health care, increased reliance on public schools, public transportation, pubic... Be cafeful for what you wish for - you may get it - your own demise.
JasonB Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 10:23:00	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Unions have a very POSITIVE impact on this country's history. In their origins, labor unions were simply fighting for improved work conditions and worthy pay for honest work. In recent years, some things added to their agendas include political lobbying, protections for individual members who may choose (it is a choice) to be less productive, strong-arm tactics to benefit members in spite of industry trends AND padding the bank accounts of their executives and members, only to price themselves out of the market they are trying to protect. Labor unions are a good thing...gone bad. Labor unions have a place in our economy, unfortunately they have chosen a path that impacts everyone's outgoing $$$$$ more than it improves the incoming $$$$$ of its members.
eddy Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 11:14:38	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Unions are a large part of the reason my Mexicans and other illegals are coming in and taking low skilled jobs while Indians, Asians, and Europeans are coming across the ocean and taking our highly skilled profession. The American middle class is getting slowly but surely squeezed on both ends right now with high-paying jobs disappearing and salaries decreasing and prices going up at the same time, all with the eventual goal of there being only a business owner's upper class and a lower class performing menial jobs for the business owners. Unions have played a role in bringing this situation about my forcing big companies to take on cost structures that they no longer can handle while maintaining high enough profitability to be competetive. They have been more focused on leveraging their own power and taking everything they can get than about being a willing partner in finding the best compromise between the comptetetiveness of the business and the needs of the workers. Because of Union agreements, Big 3 automakers find it less costly to sell low-demand cars at a loss with all discounts included than to simply idle assembly lines. At my federal work site a couple months back Union electricians and construction workers cornereed and almost beat the hell out of one of our computer guys who went to check on things because they mistakenly thought he was non-union labor coming to perform their tasks. It is a good thing that has not just become bad, but downright disgustingly ugly. I'm not for the end of Unions, I'm all for Unions recognizing what they have become and cleaning up their act before they destroy themselves.
eddy Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 11:16:50	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Oh yeah and I wonder what percentage of Union workers drive Dodge Dakotas.
mikec041 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 17:05:30	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Do you really think wages would be this high without union members sacrifices? Many major companies pay higher wages to keep unions out, it's a bargain for them as they can terminate employment at will and their health and welfare benefits (if any) are marginal and expensive to the employee. But on the other hand Ronald Regan showed us all how secure our jobs are when he FIRED the Air Traffic Controllers (Unionized) and replaced them with marginally trained lower paid non-union personnel. Bottom line is we are all worth what we can get someone to pay us
eddy Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 17:07:24	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: What wages would that be. In the manufacturing industry that's disappearing? In the higher paid computer type jobs that are being outsourceD?
Dr. D Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 22:43:32	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Really Help AMERICA ....... Unionize WAL- MART ! Dr. D
tractorfix Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 22:47:03	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: I am a skilled tradesman. I am unionized. Were it not for unions, everyone would be working 7 days a week with no benefits. This is why unions began, because of the exploitation and intimidation of all workers. I will admit, there are some whackjobs, but there are radicals in any kind of group. In the end, I think union and non-union shops balance out nicely and compliment each other. It is a competitive world, and we have to make sure overzealous managers don't shaft working joes in the name of profit and self gratification. When I'm freezing my nuts off on a picket line, I'm doing it for every slob that goes to work, not just myself or my unionized Cronies.
redneck Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/23/2004 23:32:20	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: If unions did not exist we (working man) would ALL be wage slaves forced to work from pay check to paycheck for survival wages. Not all union workers have the health care insurance and benifits the state says that welfare recipients are ENTITLED to . The system needs overhaul and quickly before it colapses under its own weight
Kowalski GenIII 11/24/2004 08:41:13	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Slow4x4Dak - your rant is typical of the corporate smoke and mirrors nonsense management likes to perpetrate. You blankly state "Union Workers - Death of America", but then go on to state you don't mean all. You have a very limited understanding of what is really going on and are simply off on a reactionary rant. Please do yourself a favor and do some more research - you will learn of the many positive changes that have been brought to most everyone's workplaces because of unions - things like vacation time, overtime, the 5 day work week, better wages for non union employees, etc. You completely ignore how unfair companies can be to labor at times. Unions would not exist if people were treated more fairly, instead of like a disposable commodity to be used up, discarded, and replaced. Unions, like most things, have their good and bad sides; you seeem determined to ignore the good. I am chief union steward for about a hundred people where I work, and proud to be able to help people who have been unfairly treated. I am also an experienced carpenter, but feel no need to justify my skills (or pay scale, which is quite reasonable) to someone as closeminded as you. Next time do some research first, or approach a subject with a more open mind. Corporate greed and close mindedness are in reality both more harmful to America. Lead, follow, or get out of the way
Breadman GenIII 11/24/2004 18:20:55	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: You have your standard of living because good union jobs enabled it. If you didn't have one yourself than your employer paid you well to keep the union out. If you don't like unions than go ____yourself. Look at my plates and you'll see where I come from. IBT.
ROD Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/25/2004 19:19:16	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: I've been represented by unions for most of my adult working life. I have read and seen on t.v. some of the history of unions and from the beginning it seems they have been a sort of legal mafia. I know that working conditions and wages would be nowhere near what they are now for several people without the sacrifices made by the various union founders, but how long can they sustain with all of the pillaging of retirement money and the "Assistant Vice Deputy Undersecretary of the Treasurer" - type positions that pay 6-figure salaries and serve no other purpose than to add a signature to every dues-raising letter I get every year? It seems that most of my dues money goes to people fighting to protect their positions at the top instead of representing the best interests of those paying them. Thanks for letting me rant :-)
Kowalski GenIII 11/26/2004 08:06:33	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: ROD - Not all unions are like that. We just saw a dues decrease, to 1% of the first 40 hrs/week only. Been in S.E.I.U. slose to 6 years now and have never seen a dues increase, we get excellent value for what we pay for. I suspect you are simply not aware of, or not acknowledging the good your union does for you. Otherwise, if you feel that strongly, you should not have spent so much of your life working in a union. Perhaps it is time for you to try a non union job ? Good luck. Lead, follow, or get out of the way
Unions Suck Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/26/2004 12:42:56	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Typical response from a union man; "if you don't like it, then quit". Do mullets like you ever consider that it's virtually impossible to find work in some fields without joining a union? That's certainly the case in my field. And just to make matters worse my the union to which I must belong to have employment is merging with>>>>I.B.T. So now I have to pay dues to support something I don't believe in but now I'm part of organized crime.
Rumblefish Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/26/2004 14:41:16	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: The company that I work for was non union till 12 yrs ago. The union was brought in becuase of the crappy way they treated people. We worked every sunday for straight time then later 1.25. Now sundays are double time and we work very few. We used to work 7 days for 9 - 10 mths striaght with no time of. Now its one rotating day off a week in maint with the option to work it and no more than 13 days in production. They used to work u 12 to 16 hrs a day with u having no say so in it. Now we don't have mandatory overtime. We used to pay 250 a mth for insurance. Now we pay for nothing. U have a president who say's its ok not to pay u overtime and wants to take it all away from u. I have a contract that says they can't. All the labor laws on fair treatment,vacation that u enjoy,holidays,holiday pay,premium pay, and all the other good stuff u take for granted is and was fought for on strike lines for yrs. U say that the big 3 can't build a small car cuz of the union. I say it's becuase of the 5million a yr that the CeO's get in salaries and bonuses. Health care going up becuase of unions. B_S_ becuase of corupt ceo's and thruogh the roof malpractice insurance. Lordstown assembly plant made the cavalier,sunbird-sunfire,and now make the colbalt. Years ago they took consesions like in the late 70's and when they did GM gave all the managers a big bonus. Lordstown will never accept consesions agian. The co. that I work for eliminated 22 truck driver jobs. Sold all are trucks,trailers and laid off all drivers. We lost that in arbitration cuz we didn't have a subcontracting cluase in our contract. Now after a 6 wk long stike they can no longer just eliminate anybodies job. Everybody that has a job now will have that job for now on. Unions are good becuase they protect the average joe agianst all or most of the screwing that management will put on u and protect your seniority and rights as an american. Otherwise some young power hungrey punk will try to walk all over some 25=yr vetern in his feild just becuase he can. Yes I can say also though that the union helps keep a few sorry people that really should be out the door,but thats the job of the power hungry kiss ass manager that hired him to get rid of him before he's in the union. Our probationary period is 6 mths long. So unions the death of America-NO-just over paid greedy CEO'S...just look at emron,the ceo of home depot and the list goes on...
Kowalski GenIII 11/26/2004 17:28:08	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: Rather than encouraging people to quit, I'd rather some of you took a more realistic view of the positive things unions do. Some of you seem very naive. For example, a mullet is a haircut. Why call someone a haircut ? Why don't you post under your usual screen name ? Ashamed ? I'd hope so. For those who feel so strongly anti union, there are always alternatives. IBT is the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. Many people work as independant truck drivers, without a union. If you don't like options like that, you are failing to recognize some of the good the union is doing for you. There is corruption everywhere, unions don't have the market cornered on that either. Lead, follow, or get out of the way
GetWith It Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/26/2004 22:05:02	RE: Union Workers - Death of America IP: Logged Message: WTF!!! KEEP THIS OFF TOPIC BS ON THE OFF TOPIC BOARD YOU BUNCH OF D A'es
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