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marketing
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2004
17:03:10
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 Subject: Hey Amsoil Dude...
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I just recieved a packet of Amsoil info and have a question. What does the graph of oil filters actually show? It seems to contradict itself.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
4/10/2004
18:04:41
|  Amsoil Preferred Customers = Wholesale Prices
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Thanks for requesting information regarding Amsoil.
I can understand your confusion.
You are used to seeing graphs that show only the Micron Filtration Quote,
... and the lower the number = usually the better filter.
I use the word "usually" -- if the number is too low = too restrictive.
The graph you asked about is NOT a Micron Quote Graph ---
--- it is a COMBINATION Efficiency and Capacity Graph
... and the higher the number = the better the filter.
Does this clear things up?
__________________________________________________
The AMSOIL Super Duty Oil Filter (SDF) is designed to provide maximum filtration while meeting the high flow demands of modern automobiles. The AMSOIL SDF contains a special cellulose, synthetic and glass blend media that offers the best possible balance of long life, high capacity and overall efficiency. The AMSOIL SDF has a lofted fiber depth-type media that traps dirt throughout its entire thickness for exceptional filtering efficiency. It keeps oil clean and free of wear-causing contaminants.
__________________________________________________
Let me know if I can be of any assistance.
If anyone else would like to request a FREE Amsoil Catalog,
you can do so by clicking the following Amsoil Link.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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marketing
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2004
18:29:09
| RE: Hey Amsoil Dude...
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Well, here's the deal, you have the same filter listed twice with different scores. The Napa Gold(rated poorly by amsoil) and the Wix (rated in top 5 i think).
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html
So who makes the Amsoil filter?
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
4/10/2004
19:00:13
| Amsoil Preferred Customers = Wholesale Prices
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Many Dakota owners (and others) are trying to figure out how many different oil filter manufacturers there are, and which manufacturer makes what brands.
Honeywell - makes Fram (In Canada the Quaker State filters are Fram filters / In the USA, QS is Purolator), Pennzoil, Quaker State
Arvin Meritor - makes Purolator Premium Plus, PureONE, Ford OEM, V-1 & SureFlow (Superflow?)
Dana - makes Wix and Napa Gold/Silver, AC Delco DuraGuards for Canada
Baldwin (Parent of Hastings) - Baldwin, Hastings, Amsoil, Casite, maybe others
Champion Labs - Mobil 1, K&N, Supertech, AC Delco DuraGuards (two different types) for USA, Bosch Premium, STP, Ultraguard Gold, Deutch & Luberfiner
Cummins Engine - owns Fleetguard
Mann - a top quality German filter maker (for our many German Friends on this site).
--------------------------------------------------
So -------- Dana makes both Wix and NAPA Gold.
That does not mean that the filters are equal.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
4/10/2004
19:06:19
| RE: Hey Amsoil Dude...
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You should read the disclaimer on the site you provided the link to:
Warning! (It should state this site prepared by an "AMATEUR")
These pages are NOT to be taken as gospel. The primary motivation behind this study was to provide information about what oil filter brands are made by which manufacturers. The secondary motivation was to uncover some of the obvious internal construction issues of these manufacturers. This "study" is not a "test". The SAE J806 and J1858 tests were designed to test the filtration capability of these filters, but unfortunately they have several short comings. These include issues such as anti-drain-back valve functionality (valve train noise, etc.), filter element containment capability (how long before it blocks and bypasses--related to surface area), and many testimonials that appear to point in the direction of certain manufacturers. It has been my hope to shed some light in the direction of these issues. While my perhaps unpopular "two eyes and common sense" approach may not be the most scientific, it is the best I could do considering there was little personal return on the investment of time and money I put into it.
The primary shortcoming of this study is the small sampling size. I only tested the Ford 5.0L filter. Some brand names use different manufacturers for different applications. Another shortcoming is the lack of testing of the filter element media itself. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor resources to do this.
I invite anyone with the means to take a larger sampling size and conduct a more complete study, which may include private SAE tests. I also invite anyone to repeat a study similar to this one on other model filters. It's really not that difficult. Just cut them open, take measurements and pictures, and be methodical.
With all of that said, please make your own judgments. Use this study only as a source of some information that may give you a better idea about which filter brands to steer clear from. It should be obvious that some manufacturers are not being honest about their product. The next time you buy a filter for your car, buy two and hack one open to see what you have. My intent was to give you some information and alert you to some little-known issues, not to tell you what to think.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
4/10/2004
19:15:14
| Who makes Amsoil Oil Filters = Baldwin Hastings
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AMSOIL Super Duty Oil Filters (SDF) are made by Hastings, which is a subsidiary of Baldwin. Baldwin still manufactures and markets under both the Baldwin and the Hastings name (Hastings filters and AMSOIL filters are made in the same plant).
Baldwin representatives told me that the AMSOIL oil filters use a better grade of filter media, found in only VERY FEW of the Baldwin filters - simply a matter of economics - it costs more - therefore the reason for the higher AMSOIL Filter price (not a middleman markup).
Amsoil filters are not Hastings! The confusion is that Amsoil also markets the Hastings brand so their dealers will have a source for EVERY filter application imaginable. Amsoil offers and sells Hastings filters but WILL NOT sell Hastings filters for which there is an equivalent Amsoil filter.
In the case of Amsoil filters, I understand the media is different in that they use a synthetic type.
When AMSOIL went to Baldwin/Hastings with the specs for the "then new" Mobil1 oil filter, Baldwin told them that they could certainly manufacture filters that could outperform it, simply by changing to the new media - which they did for Amsoil - which is why many feel the Amsoil Filter is superior.
Only VERY FEW of the Baldwin oil filters use a type of synthetic in their filters that are rated "severe service". Not all Baldwins are rated severe service. I think that their severe service filters are only manufactured for heavy-duty equipment.
All Amsoil Filters rated for SEVERE SERVICE / Extended Drains.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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marketing
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2004
19:27:11
| RE: Hey Amsoil Dude...
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I linked that site as an FYI for others, as I found it interesting and informative.
So what you are saying is, the Wix is "not necessarily" the same as the Napa filter...but with that same line of thinking one could further cloud the works by precluding it isn't necessarily different either?
What testing methods did Amsoil use to come up with their results?
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
4/10/2004
20:27:21
| Amsoil Preferred Customers & Oil Filter Study
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Without sounding like I am becoming confrontational ...
The minimopar filter study may be interesting reading, but some of the information has become very dated (I believe that the study is several years old). He cut open a bunch of filters and looked inside them. How does this tell us which one filters better? Also, the additional test was done to determine which filters have the least restriction to flow. The test should have included efficiency, filtration, and capacity tests --- and all tests should have been performed in a working environment under like circumstances. Filter restriction can in no way be aligned with filter efficiency. Capacity is another story. Filtration another. Heck, we dont even know if the bypass valves were open because the oil was cold. What conclusions can we draw from that test? Sorry --- NONE!
I have had guys tell me that Wix and NAPA Gold are the same because they "look alike". Just because they look alike does not make them identical. The most important part of the oil filter --- the media --- can not not be judged by visual comparisons. You would need to analyze it under a microscope to determine the differences.
__________________________________________________
Why does Amsoil rank high ... because Baldwin/Hastings has focused almost exclusively on the heavy-duty truck and equipment market where the technical demands are higher rather than the consumer automotive segment. That is why Amsoil approached Baldwin to manufacture the Amsoil Super Duty (Severe Service / Extended Drain) Oil Filters. __________________________________________________
Who performed the test? I am not at my office.
However I believe it to be the SAE806 Test and Amsoil ranked #1.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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marketing
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2004
23:59:40
| RE: Hey Amsoil Dude...
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Alright...I'm not going to waste my time. I did't come on here to argue with you. I simply wanted to ask a question and get an honest answer. A good salesman doesn't alienate his potential customers.
-Did I question the quality of Amsoil products? (NO. In fact I am a believer in synthetics and even considered switching from Mobil1 to Amsoil. I am sure amsoil filters are a fine product if not the finest.)
The fact is the graph shown in the amsoil reading has no explaination of what it represents. And after this conversation, it's just another bar graph in a sales brochure to me. Ironically with no reference to the basis of this conclusion it is no more usefull to the consumer than the afore mentioned web site you so vehemently discredited. You quoted the disclaimer yourself...."These pages are NOT to be taken as gospel.....This "study" is not a "test"...."
Furthermore, the Dana Corporation produces two types of Wix oil filters for the Dodge Dakota. Coincidentally, Napa brand has two oil filters available for the Dodge Dakota and they also carry Wix badging. Could they actually be different filters?...Sure. Could they be the same filter?...Sure. For the sake of arguement, a college graduate in engineering did an "unscientific study" and believed the filter to be identical to the human eye. But obviously, without scientific evidence, this means nothing. I agree it can be taken as nothing more than opinion, or at best an educated guess.
I guess your point was that you can't believe everything you read. Thanks for the Amsoil packet....point taken.
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Darryl
Dodge Dakota
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4/11/2004
01:56:04
| RE: Hey Amsoil Dude...
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This is a perfect example of why Amsoil will never get a single penny from me.
Darryl
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
4/11/2004
09:05:39
| Amsoil Oil Filter Study - Test SAE 806
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Amsoil uses amany graphs to demonstrate the quality of their oils, filters, etc. Not all information can be included in a brochure --- or it would be 100 pages long instead of 40. If I were at my office I would have posted the following. In lieu of providing the information from my office, I did an Internet Search which provides an explanation for ...
Test SAE 806
This lubrication oil filter test code is to provide means for evaluating the performance characteristics of full-flow oil filters on bench equipment. This combined with data collected from in-service applications may be used for establishing standards or performance for filters tested in this manner.
Sections include:
- Normative Reference
- Accuracy of Measuring Instruments and Test Conditions
- Resistance to Flow
- Filter Capacity and Containment Removal Characteristics of Full-Flow Filters
- Single Pass Particle Retention Capability Test
- Media Migration Test
- Collapse Test for Lube Oil Elements
- Inlet and Outlet Anti-Drain Valve Test
- Ability to Meet Environmental Conditions
- Installation and Removal
- Mechanical Tests
- Relief Valve Performance
__________________________________________________
Sometimes you have to trust the source.
Amsoil has been in business for over thirty (30) years and has never been accused of false advertising, found guilty of false advertising, fined for false advertising, etc. Every major motor oil company (usually offering such products as Prolong, STP, zMax, Slick 50, or MMO) has been either accused, found guilty, fined, or censured by the FTC.
__________________________________________________
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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Snoviper
Dodge Dakota
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4/11/2004
11:21:47
| RE: Hey Amsoil Dude...
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Here is some oil info:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
4/11/2004
14:41:25
| Amsoil Oil Filter Study - Test SAE 806
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Thank you snoviper.
I know the site BITOG. Buncha good old guys with lots of knowledge ... but they too are not always in agreement --- actually they disagree a lot ---and they veer off-topic too much for my liking.
Regarding NAPA Gold and NAPA Silver vs. Wix.
The Wix / NAPA debate will go on forever.
My cousin owns a NAPA store and he can't even tell me which is which. Sometimes the NAPA Gold has a RED anti drainback valve, and sometimes it is a BLACK anti drainback valve. The debate is that at one time NAPA Gold was the same as Wix, and then it was not --- a.k.a. it was inferior to Wix.
Wix manufactures filters for many "third-party" retailers --- as do most filter makers. Most manufacturers produce different quality filters for different price points and customer requirements.
We do not know if the current NAPA Gold is Wix's best filters unless we ask WIX. In their better filters they us a fiberglass cellulose enhanced media. They even produce a lesser line of filters that use paper.
They jury is still out -- but the SAE 806 Test does not lie.
P.S. My cousin that owns a NAPA store --- his largest instore display is Amsoil Synthetic Motor Oil, Lubricants, ATF, and Filters.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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