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P3flyer
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
03:01:28
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 Subject: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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As many of you know ball joints on our Dakotas & Durango's are failing prematurely. My 2001 Dakota needs upper ball joints badly! The shop says they are unavailable from any supplier they use and couldn't find the part. Having been in the auto business and a Mopar Muscle Car owner for over thirty years, I made some call's to my contacts and sure enough, 2000 and later upper ball joints are UNAVAILABLE! Not from MOOG, TRW, Mcquay Norris, Dana, Napa Chassis or any offshore junk supplier. So what do we do now...park these vehicles and throw the keys away?
However, some suppliers do have a part for the upper ball joints for 97-99 Dakota's. Like Mcquay Norris FA2132 & MOOG's K7242. Does anyone know if they will work with the later Daks? Has anyone done it? Why the cut off at 1999? My shop has not tried it.
It's been suggested to me that the only difference is that sometime after 2000 the part became an upper control arm assembly including the riveted ball joint! This is in fact how Dodge sell's the part, as an assembly. They are on back order also. A call to MOOG indicated they no longer have an inventory of K7392 which would be a late model control arm assembly unit. And they do not know when they will have any.
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Don Holmes
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
08:05:56
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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or you could just go to www.rockauto.com and buy Moog joints for your 2001.
i bought some for my 2000 and didn't have any problems with installing them.
for future reference, you could try searching this site for answers, there is only a post a week about these freaking ball joints.
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eddy
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
11:24:37
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Hmmm... I heard from somewhere else that Chrysler is snatching them up left and right. Could this possibly mean that once they're accumulating replacements in anticipation of a possible recall?
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P3flyer
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
12:23:02
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Don H,
Thanks for the reply...but check rockauto.com for yourself and you will find that Moog K7392 for the 2001 is "currently unavailable".
Believe me, I've searched for these parts.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
13:40:28
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Do you mean Moog has let the inventory run out?
I wonder how some people stay in business these days. I wanted to order a set just as a back-up. If and when my front end ever gets out of alignment, I plan to replace my ball joints with the Moog before I get the alignment. That just blew my plans out of the water. I'm sure Dodge has told Moog to stop production because they were probably cutting into the sails of DC's complete control arm assembly.
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dunno
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
14:00:42
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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anyone have a photo of a dakota's ball joint, i think i know what it looks like / where it is, but not sure.
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Kowalski
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
16:14:31
|  RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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R/TBlues, where do you come up with some of this nonsense ? Dodge doesn't own Moog, why would Moog allow Dodge to dictate to them to stop production ? That makes no sense !
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
19:04:09
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Kowalski,
I knew someone would bite that hook. I know you don't like listening to me ramble, but you had to ask so I'll tell. This is just one example.
For years there was no aftermarket sheet metal available for the Dodge/Plymouth muscle cars. You either had to settle for parts out of the bone yard or pay outlandish prices for NOS parts. I was into restoring back in the early 80's. I spoke to several of the aftermarket body panel manufactures and their excuse for not making body panels for the Dodges was because Dodge would not authorize them to make copies of them. Also, Dodge would not sell them or give up their tooling to stamp out the quater panels and fenders. Everything has a patent.
Also, Dodge may not own Moog, but back in the 60's and 70's Dodge and Moog did have a partnership just like Ford and Firestone. All of the tierods and ball joints of our older Dodges were manufactured by Moog even though they had the little Chrysler star stamped on them. Dodge has a vested interest in Moog that goes back before you and I were ever born. I'm not saying this did happen. I'm saying it has happened in the past and it will happen again. All Dodge would have to do is call Moog and tell them to stop selling the bastard ball joints. There could be a law suit over the fact that the balljoints were intended to be riveted to the a-arm and Moog is selling replacements that bolt on instead. If one person has an accident due to improper installation of it's "bolt-in" ball joints then you have a major law suit. For instance, someone could install these without using grade 8 fasteners, improper torque, and no locktite. All or any one of those 3 examples could cause the installation to fail and cause an accident. It would be in Dodge's best interest to stop Moog from selling the ball joints. I would be willing to bet that Dodge has bought out all the remaining ball joints and has about a 100,000 more on back order just to make sure no one else buys any of them. Since Dodge already has Moog as a manufacturer of their suspension components , they aren't loosing anything. They can take the ball joints they just bought and use them on the production line. It's all about money. If they can keep you and I from buying a ball joint from Moog then they know we will have to buy the control arm from Dodge. That is how Dodge has always operated.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
19:50:39
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Kowalski,
Here is a thread from another post you need to read. It is Dodges verdic of the ball joint situation. Read it carefully and then tell me that Dodge doesn't have anything to do with the sudden loss of inventory at Moog.
I have attached a copy of a email message sent to me by Chrysler.
Here is the position Dodge is taking on their ball-joints and us replacing them with something other than their "Dodge quality OEM parts."
I find this simply amusing.
I think they are telling me I have the right to be involved in a collision as long as I use their faulty OEM ball-joints or that their ball-joints are the 5th of the five parts:
In the unfortunate event that you're involved in an accident,
it's important to be aware of your rights...
• The California Department of Consumers Affairs, Bureau of Automotive Repair, published a study in January 2003, stating that: "4 out of the 5 non-OEM aftermarket crash parts were inferior to the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) Parts installed on the vehicle."
• You have the right to insist that your vehicle be repaired using OEM parts, a.k.a.: Dodge Collision Repair Parts by Mopar
• You also have the right to decide where your vehicle is repaired
Read more at www.mopar.com/dodgequality to learn how using Mopar Collision Repair Parts can ensure that your Dodge vehicle meets or exceeds the rigorous standards it did when it was new - standards for safety, fit and finish, materials, coatings, glass and more.
For even more information about keeping your vehicle in "like-new" condition with Mopar Repair Parts, ask your dealer.
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another mark
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
20:18:54
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Can't Moog tell you what the differnce is in their parts? I find it hard to believe the A-arm changed that much that you couldn't use '99 parts but I could be wrong. You just need the ball joint not the whole assembly. I had to get mine cut off on my '99, no big deal.
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Troy
Dodge Dakota
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2/05/2004
20:35:35
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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My dad changed out my ball joints in my 2001 regular cab dakota with moog ball joints for 99 dakotas. There is no difference. the 99 Moog ball joint work for 2000 and 2001 dakotas
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RTbill
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
04:06:10
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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TROY,
Thanks for getting back to my oringinal post question and answering it. I think you & your Dad are right...no difference.
I've ordered 2 Mcquay Norris FA2132 ball joints for the 97-99 Dak from partsamerica.com (99.98)and if they look right to me and my shop thinks the same...they are going in.
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Kowalski
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
16:25:19
|  RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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RTBlues - the sheet metal situation is a little different - you're right about the liscensing involved in that; we still can't get fresh front fenders for A-bodies. If you really want a bet, why don't you take me up on the bet I offered you in another thread where you claimed a Yugo could beat a 4.7 Dak that had a PCM with the lower timing advance ? I advised you to bring a wheelbarrow full of cash !
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Cdawg
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
20:19:31
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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First what is grade 8 fastners? just the quality of the metal or lock nuts? I refuse to use lock nuts, they bind up and cause headaches. Instead I use lock washers, nuts and locktite, all stainless steel. I work in the marine industry and boats will vibrate things loose more than trucks, lock washers work just fine.
I'm surprised no one is having more problems, I'm replacing all my ball joints, tie rod ends, and probably the outer rubber gaskets on the upper control arm(99 model ball joints just came in from rock auto for my 99). All failed before 50,000 miles.
The air chisel does work like a champ though, thanks to someone's suggestion.
And why would Moog not have just 2000 and up, are there more problems with these models or they aren't ramped up with production...why would DC just buy these years???
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
21:48:18
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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I also replaced my 00 CC Dak upper and lower balljoints with 99 units, worked perfect. Only thing odd is the hardware in the kit was 1/4" or 5/16" bolts, WAY too small for the bolt holes in the control arms or ball joints. I replaced them with 7/16" bolts after chasing the bolt holes in the control arms and balljoints, 3/8 bolts seemed a little sloppy. I also lockwashered and locktited like Cdawg suggests.
I heard someone mention that Moog would not honor any type of warranty for the pre 1999 balljoints being used on 2000 and up Dak. I don't know if this is true. I imagine the only time this would come into play is if there was an accident caused by balljoint failure. Like we aren't in that boat already. LOL
I'm not sweating it since I ran over a bale of hay at 75 on the freeway and the Moog balljoints are AOK. F'n guy didn't have the bales tied down, just my luck.
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Wal
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
21:51:44
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Stainless is a soft metal and can stretch. If it's spec'd for grade 8, use grade 8. Just MHO and worth what you paid for it ;-)
Wal
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
22:39:21
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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Kowalski,
Until I can put a timing light on one and check it for myself I will just have to take your word for it. In my 21 years of automitive experience, I've never seen a WOT advance that low. Like I said, if it is 17 degrees it would most definately see substantial HP increases with about a 25-30 degree reprogramming. Especially with aluminum heads. Aluminum heads are less prone to detonate simply because they don't retain heat. If nothing else changes on an engine and you bolt on a set of aluminum heads you will need more ignition advance. Th3 4.7L has aluminum heads. There is something bad wrong with this. Why did the turn the advance down so low? That tells me that there is a design flaw in the combustion chamber and DC "quick-fixed" it by dropping the advance way down. You can start a car with 17 degrees of advance. The 1978 351 Ford came set from the factory with 14 degrees at idle. If you wanted them to run good you turned it up to 18 degrees at idle. Anything over that and the starter would kick back when you started the engine. The 351 had cast iron heads. I've got to see 17 degrees full advance for myself to believe. Now if you told me that it was 17 degrees advance at idle, I would believe that. I do plan to contact the service manager at Landers Dodge to confirm this 17 degrees. If he tells me that is the timing at idle, then yes a YUGO will out run you if your engine is set to 17 degrees at WOT.
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CDAWG
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2004
23:23:40
|  RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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thanks Wal,
I don't know much about metals, what types of grades do automotive stores usually carry??
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Wal
Dodge Dakota
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2/10/2004
07:27:50
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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The bins are typically marked. Just find the proper sized grade 8 bolt. Don't be lured into buying a bolt with a higher hardness number because then you have to worry about them being brittle. In motorcycling I have replaced a ton of fasteners with SS for their eternal good looks v. a rusted head detracting from the bike. But, in some areas I just don't do it, for the same reason. Suspension and motor mount bolts to be exact ;-)
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Coma
GenIII
2/10/2004
10:24:31
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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R/T
I'll agree with you on the Chrysler strong-arming Moog. I work in the Automotive Industry and am a supplier for Chrysler. They are not easy to work with. There are many possible scenarios for the current absence of inventory, including Chrysler involvement. Deals with suppliers and vendors are made daily. Chrysler will get what they want, but I'm sure Moog is benefiting one way or the other.
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HotRodSRJ
Dodge Dakota
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2/10/2004
12:13:02
| RE: Ball Joints Unavailable...what now?
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R/T... me thinks you need some help on this subject so let me chime in.
First, I offer my creditials as a performance engine builder and owner of a souped up 4.7 QC 2001, and a professional engineer and A&P, I can enlighten you a bit.
First, while aluminum heads are prolific at conducting heat away from the combustion chamber, don't necessarily confuse peak cylinder pressures and thus temperatures with metal temps......two differing measurements and entities. But in general heat built in the alum heads is conducted away from the cylinder faster than iron but many aluminum heads have smaller cooling passages to offset this effect to a certain extent and moreover with the new fangled coatings technologies, makes this less of a issue. All of the aftermarket performance manufacturers of aluminum heads make their water conduits smaller than if iron media. Yes indeed, in general aluminum heads will ALLOW more timing than their iron counterparts as well as more dynamic compression can be formulated in. This is good and in every performance forum I know of, aluminum heads are the choice for power.
But, WOT has nothing to do with timing per se? Peak cylinder pressure production is reliant on several factors including fuel type (including octane), air/fuel ratios, dynamic compression ratios (not static), ambient temperature conditions of the engine and incoming charge, as well as the ignition timing curve. What you mean to say is that you want anywhere from 32 to 38 degrees of total timing in at or above 2500rpms! Without this timing factor power is stimyied! Static timing of 12 degrees is common with idle conditions around 8 more degrees or a total of 20ish. The advance during idle helps keep the engine cool in most conditions and offers a leaner profile. But, as RPM builds, it needs more timing and 30 to 40 range is the accepted norm for performance and milage for V8s.
FWIW, my 4.7 has all the timing in at 2600 at 34degrees and idles with 20 degrees (not to be confused with static). I can easily burn down the rear tires on my Quadcab and get over 20mpg at steady state 70mph. Sounds like it will take a YUGO anytime, pulling a 4000# trailer.
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