RE: Mr. Amsoil - Dodge Dakota Forum

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peedee Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/11/2004 23:30:15	Subject: RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: I relate this oil additive thing to when I bought my dakota. I called Goodyear to ask which product they endorse to clean and protect the tires, and to prevent them from dry rot etc. I backed that phone conversation with an email so that I would have a hard copy of the discussion. The hope is that first of all I will not have any af the aforementioned problems and in the event that I do, I will have written documentation for debate with the goodyear rep. The point is that if I am using Amsoil, and Amsoil recommends an additive for my oil and situation, then I will feel comfortable with it and also have some comfort in the fact that I would have some recourse or a chance of such. If I were using Mobil, then I would use thier additive if it were recommended by them and I felt that my situation etc warranted it. I make most of my decisions by weighing the opinions of people like steve and other users of certain products. I do not accept individual opinion as the final word, I form my own collectively, and I keep an eye on the developing opinions of the products i use. I have personally found that most additives I personally used in the past gave temporary results at best, but that is my personal experience. I also found from when I was a station owner -shell- that additives bought time for those who used them, and were not very effective at prevention. Much time has passed since then and additives may be more effective at prevention now, but I do not believe that I need any such product. I believe in a quality oil for my particular situation, and no additives beyond those which the manufacturer of the oil has formulated into that oil. If I believe in their product enough to put it in my vehicle, then I believe in their recommendation - again weighed by opinion, data, etc. I appreciate those like steve, who take the time to address questions and concerns, and most importantly, seem to do so in a fair and unbiased manner. Maybe steve is trying to sell oil, but he is smart enough to know that the time he spends addressing such, is not profitable - whether or not he cuts and pastes parts of those responses. therefore one could form the opinion that steve writes such copy as a service without expecting compensation, to all who pass this way.So, after reading the copy presented by steve in many threads here, I have respect for him and his opinion. I will also say that after reading the most recent response from salsahh, I have respect for him also. Finally, I know you thought the end would never come, the product recommended by Goodyear is: Goodyear Tire Care. It comes in a spray can and if you want to find the local distributor, call them or visit the website. It is the best stuff I have used on tires, and those who have tried it at my urging are very pleased with it. While we are on the subject of prevention, the best thing that I have ever used for the plastic/vinyl on my truck and cars, is Mothers back to black. Two applications last through many washings and 24/7 in the sun, and most importantly, does not create the need for more and more product to be applied. Some products may "look good" but they actually cause damage.
salsahh Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 01:32:39	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: WOW Where do I start. Before I start I want to say that this a great forum with very understanding and strong individuals that can stand on their own two feet and are not influenced easily! In the internet forum world its almost unheard of most are popularity contests if a member has posted for a long time he could tell you the world will end tomorrow and everyone will defend him or her I thank you ALL for that. Steve Lets stay on the issue on hand and not get off track calling people terrorists I'm problably more conservative and more pro american than anyone I know. I'm from a small town and work very hard and love living in america. Freddy2x Lets get more specific there are far more additives that you failed to mention in motor oil that most SNAKE OILS contain in more amounts. What is a SNAKE OIL? What makes a Snake OIL? Whats in a Snake oil? Peedee I also found from when I was a station owner -shell- that additives bought time for those who used them, and were not very effective at prevention. Your right you know why? Most gas stations sell quick fixes that people that don't take good care of their equipment become desperate when its too late and purchase an additive. It does not fix their problem so they vent their frustration about the product to everyone that comes in contact with them. If mechanical wear and failures begin and are not treated right away NOTHING can bring that metal back ITS GONE never to return. STP(or equivelent) counters this by thickening the oil beyond belief to take the place of the wear thus reduction in smoking. If proper maintenance is performed regularly and good quality oil is used like AMSOIL along with an ADDITIVE like SFR and you fall under the NON severe user your equipment can literally last FOREVER. There are 2 types of people DIY- do it yourself DFM- do it for me after that there are others that either do not know how to take care of their stuff or do not care. Most of the SNAKE OILS serve the grey people or the third one mentioned. most of the SNAKE OILS or the ADDITIVES ARE BAD classifications are from the Marketers that told you that use it once and it will last for 50,000 miles they lied and were punished by the FTC. ADDITIVES whether in oil or supplemental are used and depleted as soon as you drain the oil and from how long your drain interval was. They DO NOT last forever so you must continue to use them. I will do some digging and find some oil analysis on before and after use. the results are very dramatic but once again if something mechanical is ready to go the beauty of oil analysis is you can either sell before its to late or repair the problem before it destroys more than just one component. but aside from that you can see the effects the additive has on the equipment. Amsoil is no exception if you take low quality crap oil and do a before and after test even Amsoil will come out on top over the lesser quality oil. Anything better than where you started is good right? Additives can take it a little further and give you that much more edge. Last but not least one simple point If the major oil companies were looking in your best intrest all of the time. Answer this question Why do most major oil companies have their own oil additives and fuel additives?? if there oil was so good or their gas was so good why these other products? great example if Chevron made the best gas why was Techron invented??? Did you know that there are LARGE divisons of these corporations deditcated to making additives. Last question. Steve ask your people where amsoil gets there ADDITIVES that they mix in their oils. IF you say they do it themselves we've got a serious problem.
Freddy2x Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 06:29:47	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Snake Oils and FTC investigations and fines (short list) Valvoline Engine Treatment http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/10/valve.htm Slick 50 Engine Treatment http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1996/07/slick.htm STP Engine Treatment http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1995/12/stp.htm Dura Lube Super Engine Treatment http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/05/duralub2.htm Motor Up Engine Treatment http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/04/motorup5.htm Prolong Super Lubricants http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/09/prolong.htm Castrol Syntec Complaint http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/12/castrolcmp.htm Shell & Castrol Syntec gas additive - FTC Charges http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/09/shellcastrol.htm Shell Vektron 3000 Additive FTC charges http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/09/shellcomplaint.htm
Freddy2x Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 06:45:56	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Aftermarket Lube Additives: An Industry’s Shame By David McFall (I must credit the writer. Not my words. I own a retail store. I am not an oil expert. But i think this guy says a lot and very well. I searched the web and I decided long ago NOT to carry additives on my shelves) Tucked into a musty corner of the massive petroleum industry, sheltered by the indifference of oil marketers, auto makers, retailers and the American Petroleum Institute, is the $150 million aftermarket lube additive market – a virtual plague of engine oil additives, supplemental additives, oil treatments and engine treatments. Do aftermarket lube additives cause hamn? The Answer: To engines, some probably do. To consumers and their wallets, yes. And to the environment, a resounding yes. Shelves of the Northern Virginia Pep Boys store sport bottles of Shell oil’s newly acquired Slick 50 engine treatment, Valvoline’s SynPower Oil Treatment, STP Oil Treatment, the ubiquitous Prolong and the latest Federal Trade Commission target, zMax. Also in this dubious assembly is the low-price entry, Proline Oil Treatment – only 99 cents per oil change, for which you’ll get your “noisy engine quieted, a reduction in oil burning and increased compression.” Finally, there’s the real howler, Marvel Mystery oil, from USA Hardware in Minneapolis, at $1.99 an oil change. It will “combat internal motor rust and corrosion, lubricate valves, piston rings and upper cylinder and eliminate valve sticking, keep rings free and reduce piston and cylinder wear, retard formation of power dissipating motor deposits such as gum, varnish and sludge and will neutralize acid formation and improve viscosity index.” In its owner’s manual, Ford Motor Co. recommends against the use of aftermarket lubricant additives (ALAs) for engines, transmissions, transaxles, etc. For example, the engine oil section in the 2003 Ranger pickup’s manual states twice, for emphasis, on the same page, “Do not use supplemental engine oil additives, cleaners or other engine treatments. They are unnecessary and could lead to engine damage that is not covered by Ford warranty.” “Don’t add anything to you oil.” – 1998 Buick Regal owner’s manual “Do not add any material (other than leak detection dyes) to engine oil. Engine oil is an engineered product and its performance may be impaired by supplemental additives.” – 2003 DaimlerChrysler owner’s manual “Using supplemental additives is generally unnecessary and can even be harmful (emphasis added). One should never use an additive to fix a mechanical problem.” – Detroit Diesel bulletin several years ago “ExxonMobil does not recommend (additive supplements and/or engine treatments).” – Mobil 1 website Isn’t that what motor oil does? The real mystery is why anyone would buy this product or reputable stores would stock it. Not yet on the Pep Boys shelf, but just off stage is another “truly revolutionary new technology.” LuBoron Advanced Lubrication Technology was, according to it promotional literature, developed by the Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratories; its “fully degradable products literally change the surface characteristics of all metals…” and “reduce friction up to a staggering 80 percent, reduce wear up to 90 percent, and reduce internally generated friction heat by 40 percent to 50 percent. These dramatic claims are fully documented.” LuBoron declined to respond to the issue of OEM concern over log term engine durability (or any other issue, for that matter) or possible harm from using aftermarket additives such as LuBoron product. In The Government’s Sights – Beginning about a decade ago the Federal Trade Commission mounted a long-term attack on false, misleading and unsubstantiated performance claims made by manufacturers of ALAs. Such claims are at the center of all the FTC suits over these products. When companies settle a suit they agree to stop making false and misleading claims, and in many cases pay a fine or a civil penalty. Three of the more famous ALA manufacturers got nailed by the FTC in the late 1990s. In 2000, Dura Lube settled and paid a 2 million dollar fine, and Motor Up settled, too, after agreeing not to make claims it could it could not scientifically support, and not to misrepresent tests, studies or data on its product’s performance. In 1999, Prolong settled without a fine, also agreeing not to make unsupported claims. Earlier, in 1995, First Brands paid a $888,000 fine settle what the FTC said were misleading claims for STP Oil Treatment. Each of these companies continues to market ALAs. Also, Quaker State (now part of Shell Oil) agreed to make at least $10 million in consumer redress, over allegedly deceptive advertising for Slick 50. And Ashland Inc., Valvoline’s parent company, settled without a fine in 1997 on TM8, a PTFE-containing ALA it no longer markets (although it has others on the retail shelves). The FTC has only one active ALA case currently. Two years ago it brought suit against Speedway Motorsports Inc. (which owns and operates six NASCAR race tracks), alleging that the company used “false and misleading advertising for zMax auto additives.” ZMax is a product of Oil Chem Research Corp., a wholly owned Speedway subsidiary. The suit was based on 1997 data from two L-38 engine tests, which measures bearing corrosion. These two tests, according to the FTC’s initial complaint, “actually demonstrated that motor oil treated with zMax produced more then twice as much bearing corrosion that motor oil alone.” The FTC complaint also charged Speedway and Oil-Chem with fabricating “one ‘report’ from the two test reports, eliminating the bearing corrosion results and all other negative test results, and then used that report and the ‘official’ laboratory results - similarly edited to remove detrimental data results – as sales tools.” At press time, Lubes’n’Greases learned that the FTC has withdrawn the suit from litigation and that the parties had reached a settlement. Details of the agreement were unavailable from FTC staff, however, until a judge finalized it. In the interim, Oil-Chem Research blusters that it will be vindicated, thanks to a barrage of testing data it supplied. The FTC’s experts witnesses, it says, “were unsuccessful to discredit the completed tests where zMax had been shown a reduce friction, increase horsepower, dissipate engine heat, improve fuel economy, extend engine life, etc. Had the witnesses been able to discredit the accumulated testing, zMax would most certain have gone the same route of Prolong, Slick 50, Motor Up and the rest.” It’s likely, however, that zMax may be enjoined from hanging a percentage on its fuel economy claim, one observer said. (That is, “increases gas mileage: would be OK; “Increases gas mileage by 5-13 percent,” as it now claims, would be verboten.) “Not An Additive”- Throughout the case, Speedway Motorsports vigorously disputed the FTC charge. Speedway’s consultant, Mario LePera, formally with the U.S. Army’s Mobility Technology Center at Ft. Belvior, Va., noted, “The L-38 tests which the FTC relied on were run on oils formulated for aircraft piston engines (i.e. meeting SAEJ1899) and that although the test showed increased bearing corrosion, it did not exceed the specifications limits for that product.” LePera presented Lubes’n’Greases with a list of six additional L-38 (now renamed the Sequence VIII) engine tests, which were conducted on zMax between November 2001 and January 2003. These were so called A/B testes, where the tests runs first with engine oil alone, then with zMax added. The oil used differed each time but one, as did the treat rate with the zMax. Some results are widely impressive, others impressively wild. Bearing weight loss might go down 73.8 percent – or up 8 percent, for example. Blow bycould increase 1.1 percent, or drop 3.5 percent. But since every test is on different viscosity oil, or at a different treat rate, how to compare them? And why the differing treat rates anyway? Cant Oil-Chem settle on the right one for these oils? The tests also don’t speak to Max’s long-term effect on engine durability. “In every case, there were no increases in bearing corrosion,” LePera said, adding, “all of the test, using wither SJ or SL quality oils, were done in Oil-Chem’s lab, by Oil-Chem employees in stands calibrated according to ASTM D6709.” (The stands had not been referenced by the Test Monitoring Center, as is done with independent engine test labs.) If engine oils want to claim fuel economy benefits, they must perform the difficult, expensive and finicky Sequence VIB test. Should zMax be allowed to claim fuel economy enhancements based on various oils and treat levels in the L-38/Sequence VIII? (That’s a question the FTC asked, too. It’ll be interesting to hear what the judge says.) However, Ed Rachanski Sr., Oil-Chem Research’s director, and LePera say there are a number of other tests – vehicle field tests, engine dynamometer tests and lab bench tests – Which they say, “certainly prove zMax to provide beneficial effects. Further, to subject zMax to the laboratory and engine dynamometer testing required for PI SL/GF-3 would be inappropriate as it is neither an engine oil nor an additive system.” See, zMax is “not an automotive engine oil or an engine additive that is required to pass API/SAE/ILSAC specifications and undergo the certification process,” the two reiterate. “zMax by both public and industry concepts is not an additive.” Rather, it “is in a unique field of its own, as it treats the metal and not the engine oil.” Got that? They can test it, you can’t. Inside The Box – how is zMax used? Take a look at its marketing program and product packaging. Which bears its full title, “zMax Micro-Lubricant Power System,” selling for $41.77. First zMax promises to “increase gas mileage by 5-13 percent, soak into metal and protect the engine form inside out, restore power and improve performance, reduce wear and friction, lengthen engine life, prevent blow by and reduce carbon formation, reduce emissions, protect vital engine parts and is capable of lowering the coefficient of friction between two sliding metal surfaces.” Lots of other claims, too, but you get the idea. NASCAR legend A.J. Foyt plans to use it “for the rest of my life.” The Slick packaging includes an API-like “star burst” promising an “iron clad 150,000 mile no-non-sense GUARANTEE, when properly used every six thousand miles or every six months which ever comes first.” Another GUARANTEE: “Better fuel mileage or your money back.” The product promises a “complete treatment” for just about every conceivable kind of engine from chain saws, leaf blowers, jet skis to gasoline and diesel engines. The package contains three bottles of fluid – one for the engine, one for the transmission and one for the fuel tank. (Directions for using them are tightly sealed inside the tamper evident box they come in – no peaking!) For ground transportation vehicle engines, LePera explained “the recommended treatment is to add zMax at the 6,000 mile drain interval (i.e., It is added after the new oil has been charged to the engine) or add zMax every six months, which ever comes first.” Keep in find that the $41.77 a zMax treatment cost could buy a consumer four full crankcases of brand new, conventional API-licensed SL oil, or close to two full crankcases of premium priced Mobil 1 synthetic. Next month we’ll look at how automobile manufacturers and the oil industry approach the ALA issue. Meanwhile, anyone who buys ALA gets an automatic “A” in Professor P.T. Barnum’s introductory class, titled, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” What about those oil additives like Slick 50, Prolong and others? The fact is they are totally useless and in many cases actually detrimental to your engine. The Federal Trade Commission has issued charges of false and deceptive advertising that these and many other additive manufacturers have misled consumers into believing that their products offer increased engine protection and performance when added to your motor oil. Federal Trade Commission Charges zMax with False and Deceptive Advertising Read about the latest FTC charges against zMax in our informative articles link. ZMax is the latest company to be charged in a long list of companies. The FTC has successfully halted false and deceptive advertising by the marketers of Dura Lube, Motor Up, Prolong, Valvoline, Slick 50. STP and other major brands of engine treatment systems. As a result of the charges, some are now out of business while others are required to revise their advertising claims. Without going into extensive detail here's what you need to know about aftermarket oil additives: There are basically two types of additives used, either Teflon based with PTFE (like Slick 50) or Chlorinated based (like Dura Lube) with some type of carrier, usually a paraffin based carrier or other mineral oil. Some have extremely large amounts of moly, zinc or phosphorus, all extreme pressure agents which are detrimental to a motor oils proper function in the amount that they use. Teflon does absolutely nothing inside your engine. Teflon must be heated up to about 800 deg. F to get it to stick to anything for friction reducing purposes, just like the Teflon on a frying pan, yet in your engine all those suspended microscopic colloidal Teflon particles do is gradually attach to you oil pick-up screen and reduce oil flow to your critical components as well as reducing the oil flow in other critical internal engine passages by attaching themselves to the passageway walls. In addition, as your oil filter filters out some of these suspended Teflon particles, your filter flow rate will be reduced which may eventually become restricted and default in to by-pass mode, which means unfiltered oil will be flowing through your engine. Ever get bleach on your fingers? It's pretty slippery isn't it? Same principle here. Add enough Chlorinated components to a carrier and mix it with some type of teflon, moly, zinc or phosporus & you can reduce the friction, except for one "minor" thing: Chlorinated additives mixed with oil and subjected to heat forms hydrochloric acid! Hydrochloric acid is extremely detrimental to you internal engine parts. Get the picture? That's it in a nutshell. The bottom line is: When using a properly formulated motor oil you do not need any additives whatsoever and additionally, the additives you may put in can react negatively with the additives the oil company carefully blended in. The major oil and additive companies are some of the richest and most powerful companies in the world, and they certainly can afford to hire the top chemists that know how to properly formulate a motor oil (this is not to say they make a quality motor oil; just that they know how to properly formulate one to perform the functions it was designed to do and meet the required specifications). Then these additive companies pop up claiming to perform miracles with their outrageously priced snake oil. Do yourself a favor and stay away from aftermarket oil additives, regardless of how appealing the bogus claims they make in their advertising are! What if They Have a Test To Show How Their Additive Works?... Read On... At a recent trade show we were at one of these miracle oil additive companies was there with a machine that demonstrated how their additive reduced friction. It was a motor with rotating solid steel disc secured to the motor shaft and a torque meter with a flat piece of steel mounted on the torque arm. They put every type of oil on the market, one by one, on the machine & pressed hard on the torque meter and at about 20-40 lb-ft torque the torque arm would stall the motor....that is until they cleaned it off & tried their (chlorinated) additive "IXL" on the bearing & ran the test. People were amazed as the meter peaked out at 140 lb-ft. torque and still didn't stall the motor. We knew what was happening but many unsuspecting consumers were eating it up and standing in line to buy the additive. The next day we showed up with some Head & Shoulders Shampoo disguised in an oil bottle & had the IXL additive people try it on their test machine. The operator was amazed as the motor just barely stalled at 140 lb-ft. The operator says that's pretty good stuff, what is it? We said Head & Shoulders. He was quite embarrassed to say the least. Head & Shoulders has high levels of high potency ZINC in it that attaches itself to ferrous metals. Coke soft drink will do exactly the same thing. ZINC reduces friction and provides anti-wear protection and is present in most motor oils at a much reduced level. Now, would you put Head & Shoulders in your engine? Additionally, the test machine was measuring EXTREME PRESSURE. Motor oils do not have extreme pressure additives blended in like gear lubes do nor do they need extreme pressure additives. Their is absolutely no need for EP additives in a motor oil. A gear lube would not stall the motor as easily because gear lubes have high levels of Extreme Pressure additives blended in, but do you think they would test their IXL additive against gear lubes? Heck no! They use motor oil....They are comparing apples to oranges & tricking you into buying their additive. Same theory holds true for Slick50, Prolong, Dura Lube, Motor Up, Valvoline Engine Treatment and many others. Please DON'T be fooled by oil additives. They simply are not needed and can be detrimental to the proper function of a motor oil. Freddy2x (I opened 2 retail stores)
salsahh Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 11:18:26	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Now Hold on a minute some of this is true and some is a manipulation of the truth. Additionally, the test machine was measuring EXTREME PRESSURE. Motor oils do not have extreme pressure additives blended in like gear lubes do nor do they need extreme pressure additives. Their is absolutely no need for EP additives in a motor oil. Freddy I have a copy of the motoroil guidlines book issued from the API. Because of higher unit loading, higher engine speeds, and the smaller size of certain parts, modern engines have many components that operate under boundary or EXTREME PRESSURE LUBRICATION conditions much of the time. this is why quality motoroils are fortified with effective boundary lubrication ADDITIVES. I didn't write this but i'm sure David Mcfall had something to do with it. In its owner’s manual, Ford Motor Co. RECOMENDS against the use of aftermarket lubricant additives (ALAs) for engines, transmissions, transaxles, etc. For example, the engine oil section in the 2003 Ranger pickup’s manual states twice, for emphasis, on the same page, “Do not use supplemental engine oil additives, cleaners or other engine treatments. They are unnecessary and could lead to engine damage that is not covered by Ford warranty.” This is not true! Recommends is the key word used here and if engine damage should occur FORD would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the additives WERE the cause of the failure. This is a great excuse to get out of warranty work they love the defaults. So ok let me ask you this FORD motor company doesn't say to use AMSOIL or PENNSOIL in your truck so i Guess if your engine fails its the oils fault come on give me a break look up the Magnuson ACT and LEMON LAWS. I'm noticing this is becoming more and more an issue like the use of chryslers 7176 fluid and toyota's T-IV fluids. Sure you must meet what the oil is trying to do but that doesn't mean you have to use TOYOTA FLUID. PTFE teflon I'm with you dude its bad and its very harmful to humans and the enviroment. Ever seen the movie ERIN BROCKOVICH well dupont will be starring in it in the near future this stuff when heated turns into a deadly gas which is already killing pets like for example when you cook on the stove and scrape the pan coated with teflon your eating TOXINS and if you have birds near by if you overheat the pan they will drop dead. Whats this got to do with an engine the head honcho in charge came on national television and said teflon cannot withstand heat or pressure. the TWO BIGGEST ENEMIES IN AN ENGINE. PTFE is great on sliding surfaces like bike cables but does not belong near food nor does it belong in and ENGINE. Ever get bleach on your fingers? It's pretty slippery isn't it? Same principle here. Add enough Chlorinated components to a carrier and mix it with some type of teflon, moly, zinc or phosporus & you can reduce the friction, except for one "minor" thing: Chlorinated additives mixed with oil and subjected to heat forms hydrochloric acid! Hydrochloric acid is extremely detrimental to you internal engine parts. Get the picture? That's it in a nutshell. Ok time for a little chemistry lesson. This is true to certain formulations mainly short chain chlorinated parrafin when mixed with water could make HCL. Now how about this when using a Long chain parrafin which is more stable and INCREASING TBN TOTAL BASE NUMBER how would the acid form when some additives that are considered to make ACID have a HIGHER TBN than motoroil. I would like to see some proof that acid occured in an engine enviroment. When using a properly formulated motor oil you do not need any additives whatsoever and additionally, the additives you may put in can react negatively with the additives the oil company carefully blended in. Now come on this is about as evasive as the word RECOMMEND. Don't be stupid if you increase one thing more than others what do you think will happen of course you'll upset this careful balance. I mean take ZMAX for example. Zmax is made with linkite an Aviation Cleaner. CLEANER! Thats all it does what happens when you clean something you take away all lubrication properties and replace it with nothing. NOT SMART but if you use it only as a SHORT term cleaner IT can do some good if there is a need to remove sludge or deposits. But i wouldn't use for more than 50-100miles. I think i would put diesel in my engine before this stuff at least diesel has a little lubrication. There are many others similar to the ones mentioned and as posted before these are the players that cheated. Most of them DO NOT make their own formulas nor do they manufacture their own products. YOUR right they don't have an extensive background in lubrication more emphsis on MARKETING. SFR is not one of those companies they manufacture and blend their own formulas and do everything in house and purchase all of their components right here in the USA. the others are moving on and cutting costs and doing their things in CHINA. almost 90% of everything we buy now is from CHINA no offense to the chineese americans but the real chinese businessmen are UNETHICAL lie cheat and steal everything.
smoke29 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 11:27:33	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: WOW!
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 8/12/2004 11:30:17	Amsoil Dealer www.american-synthetic-oil.com #1 IP: Logged Message: To answer your question. Amsoil, ... as well as Redline, Royal Purple, Schaffers, and many other fine TOP LINE SUPERIOR SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL COMPANIES, are not in the exploration, drilling, pumping, refining, etc., businesses. Let someone else get their hands dirty! TOP LINE SUPERIOR SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL COMPANIES employ top engineers, chemists, technicians, etc. to develop OPTIMUM FORMULATIONS. __________________________________________________ As to discrediting Amsoil because we are a MLM company ... As for MLM's ... Well, ... there isn't anything wrong with this as most companies are a network of people that take the money from the bottom people who do the work and rolls it back up to the top, each level is getting their portion and usually the guy on top makes the most. This is common in any and every company. If most companies would follow such a program (performance based) you'd be surprised as to how many would really put an effort into really working instead of expecting that paycheck just for showing up. That's the neat thing about MLM's, as it can offer the ones that work ... an unlimited amount of income based on their performance. Not everyone should be in a program such as this because many cannot focus on selling and are better suited as a production person (clock-in clock-out) and IMHO ... they DO deserve their share because if not for them there would be no product to sell. So, is MLM bad?, I don't think so. Every company is an MLM of sorts. FOR THE RECORD, Amsoil was started 30 years ago as an MLM because they did not have the advertising budgets to compete with the "big guys". I'm certain that if they were starting the company today ... what with easier access to capital (Venture Capital and the Stock Market) they might do it differently. However, they can't change their stripes now ... thousands of Amsoil Independent Representatives would loose their sole income or their second income ... and who says they want to. I think Amsoil is quite happy with 5% of the market that appreciates a superior product. FYI --- 32 Years In Business and Amsoil has never been fined or censured by the FTC! -------------------------------------------------- Anyone interested in the Amsoil Independent Dealership Opportunity can click the following link and request "Dealer Information". Thanks, Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
FrankS Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 11:37:26	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Mr Salsa. You inadvertently admitted that you work for SFR. Yet you have yet to convince us about your products quality. All you do is flame Mr. Amsoil. Please tell us why we should use SFR, aka SNAKE OIL?
Salsahh Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 16:26:00	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Frank I'm sorry but I don't know what you just said. Inadvertently i work for SFR if so, WHATS YOUR POINT. I'm sorry if you think I flame Mr. Amsoil i'll try to be nice in the future so I don't hurt your feelings. I wouldn't want to TRY to explain that NOT all additives are bad cause I might stress someone out. Please tell us why we should use SFR, aka SNAKE OIL? ask a silly question get a silly answer. Why should we use oil at all? Why would you want to increase horsepower? Why would you want to decrease foregin oil dependency? Why would want to make things last longer? I don't know why? You tell me why? Look SFR additives follow the same business practices that any of the oil companies do they oil meets and exceeds cleanliness codes. which is Royal purples entire program. They perform a function that the API has listed a motor oil do. The ONE and Only thing you could argue is the fact that Additives do not have a API Classification. Its simple really one hasn't created a Classification for additives cause technically that was already created by the oil guys and since the additives are added to oil which in most cases increases the specifications to become a new classification wheres the need? On top of that what is a HIGH QUALITY OIL? What defines one to be a HIGH QUALITY OIL? Steve look I'm not Knocking MLM all i was trying to imply was that the markup is ridiculous by the time it gets to the consumer. And even if you make 5% or whatever geez you sure got to sell alot of oil to make any money at all and from what i've heard and know about amsoil is that guys are stacked on top of each other the margins are way tight. I can tell you where i live alone there's problably 4 or 5 dealers. THIS IS ALL HYPOTHETICAL I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT YOUR PROGRAM IF Amsoil has 5% of the market. For every 20 people not cases of oil sold. Amsoil sells 1 case. ok lets take 40,000 people thats about how many live where i do. half of that buys 1 case every month constently is 1000 customers. 5 reps. Thats 200 customers per month (not bad) 6$ per quart in a six-pack is 36$ per case if your standard commision is 5% thats 360$ you put in your pocket. What about travel expenses, shipping, and the car you have to buy to drive this stuff around. In the end why go through this madness to sell this product? Now my figures may be off and you may have a great deal setup with amsoil but i've talked with several reps that are clearing there inventories and movin on cause the competition is fierce and margins are low and in the end it effects the consumer. Why can't amsoil sell to the stores like walmart and go all out and dump all of you guys? they certainly have the money and if its as great as most say the noteriaty is already there. MLM and ladder deals are tough if you know what your doing you can make a pile of money if your just the average guy that likes what he hears but does not know how to execute selling. ITS A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY. Thats the only thing about MLM. SFR HAS BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR 20+ years and also never FINED NOR CENSORED by the FTC. Did you know that the only reason the FTC does anything to anyone is because the competitors can't deal with their frustrations. Why did pennsoil which owns slick 50 turn slick 50 in?? BECAUSE slick 50 made 200 million dollars and they were scared it might effect their real business of selling oil! Why did duralube, motorup, etc. get turned in they were taking slick 50's money! You can say the logical thing that they lied etc.etc. but the bottomline was the entire thing was POLITICAL You read the FTC's filing and posting of the final outcome but in the actual depostion the government already sided with the oil companies before any additive was brought to court. the oil companies used their own testing facilities and additives used government regulated independent labratories. they did not ask nor question the functions of the product but only discredited the additive guys backgrounds. when all was said and done the final outcome was additives made claims they couldn't back up. YOU've seen the shows they were pretty off based driving vipers without oil and million dollars to any product that could beat them that was all BS and hollywood fakeness but you know that Pennsoil and the rest do similar gimmicks on their commercials like dennis leary grinding a piston on a grinder "dont make me send you the lab results" I wouldn't mind seeing them. or the engine that pops out of the hood and chases the pennsoil around. or how about castrol start up oil. No oil nor additive that i'm aware of can claim that without some trouble coming their way.
FrankS Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 16:45:37	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Mr Salsa, Admit it !!! You Work for SFR!!! That is why you are here raising HELL. Become a sponsor. Buy a banner ad. Or go away! Covert marketing (defending) of your (snake oil) product will not be tolerated!
salsahh Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/12/2004 17:58:25	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Frank I am a mechanic by trade I do not work for SFR nor have I once propostioned anyone to buy SFR I am using them as an example of why additives are not all as bad as you think they are or want to think they are. So far my experiences have been good here on this board. I have not spammed or done any other type of COVERT MARKETING only stating the facts as the others do and defending my opinion. Maybe i've rubbed you the wrong way I apologize for that. I am not raising hell and am not being mean to anyone on this board but only trying to have a discusion if anyone should be made it should be me I was already called a terrorist.
SMOKE29 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/13/2004 11:24:46	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Some of ypu people must be pretty young. Jumping all over people pretty quick. I myself would never use an additive because i don't know enough about them. SMOKE29
Roger Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/13/2004 12:16:48	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Age has nothing to do with anything in this post Smoke. My point was/is that salsaa had stated to take Steve's advice with a grain of salt. Clearly because he is a selling Amsoil. My point (and others) are that Salsaa is attempting to promote a product that he sells (although he hasn't admitted it yet) and doing it exactly the way Steve promotes his. I personally believe that salsaa has every right to promote a product he believes in as should Steve. Regarding Steve's response to the initial question, he did attempt to find out more information about SFR in, I believe, and honest attempt to give an honest opinion. Having said that, Salsaa's response was inappropriate as he stated that Steve's comments should be viewed with skeptisism. All I'm saying is that we should view his in the same manner. Personally, I couldn't care less who puts what in their vehicles. I've tried Amsoil, Mobil1 as well as additives and I've never seen/felt any difference in performance nor mpg. Thanks.
Dr. D Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/13/2004 22:09:07	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: I have never seen any aircraft mechanic pour aftermarket oil additives in a jet engine. And ..... A good high quality motor oil of any brand (petroleum or synthetic) needs no additional additives. Dr. D p.s. Never heard of SFR but I am sure the FTC will.
FrankS Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/14/2004 08:06:57	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Dr. D, Have you been around aircraft and aircraft mechanics? I do not want to be a "jerk" but it helps when you explain the background behind your statements. I still don't know what all the nonsense talk is here about Mr. Amsoil and what he may or may not have said about SFR. He never said anything bad. Mr. Amsoil stated: "I know nothing of this product and since they appear not to provide much technical data, I'd be somewhat aprehensive of using it until some basic questions are answered. One, why do you need that or any other after market friction modifier in your oil? Is it that your Step Father feels the oil in use aren't cutting it? Those are the real issues that need to be asked when looking to add in additives in an already balanced oil. Although I'm sure it'd be nice to know what kind of chemistry they use since they appear to not use any standard one." I agree with you Dr. D., if you read all Salsa's posts - I think Salsa works for SFR. FrankS
Dexter Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/14/2004 10:36:45	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: SFR's product -- Protecta -- is advertised on Horsepower TV on the Spike channel. They advertise that they have an additive for oil, transmission and fuel. They claim that they guarantee your vehicle for 200,000 miles against transmission or engine failure if you use SFR Protecta. A 200,000 mile Engine/Tranny guarantee??? Sign me up!!!! JUST KIDDING HaHaHaHaHa!!!!! Typical snake oil hard sell and outrageous claims!!!
Dexter Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/14/2004 10:43:55	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Back to the topic ............. Nobody makes a 200,000 mile engine/tranny guarantee. Except SFR! Not Mobil1 Not Royal Purple Not Redline Not Amsoil Four of the best synthetic oil companies! None of them make outlandish 200,000 mile guarantee claims like SFR does! SFR Protecta = Typical snake oil hard sell and outrageous claims!!!
Dr. D Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/14/2004 11:20:15	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: I am a former aircraft mechanic and I have been using synthetic oils every since I learned about them. ( I use AMSOIL for the record ) I am also very knowledgable about used oil analysis, patch tests etc. ( trained by the U.S. Navy ) The only lubricants that may ever need additional additives (friction modifiers) are gear lubricants. Keep in mind that an oil manufacturer is only liable for oil related "failures" caused by their product , They are not liable for excessive wear "caused" by their product that is followed by a "mechanical failure". A 200,000 mile warranty is only as good as the company that stands behind it. AMSOIL has 30+ years of experiance in nothing but synthetic lubrication ..... This is the company that I trust. Knowing I am going to get flammed. Dr. D
Dexter Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/15/2004 21:11:11	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: I win thru default. Salsa stopped posting when his integrity and the product (SFR) was questioned.
dkota_rt Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/15/2004 22:12:20	RE: Mr. Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Hello Mr. A$$ OIL!!!
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