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Norman
Dodge Dakota
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6/30/2003
15:39:37
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 Subject: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Can someone tell me why does coolant have to be mixed with a 50/50 mix or a 60/40 mix when you can run almost 100% coolant? Wontt 100% Coolant provide better protection?
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Google
Dodge Dakota
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6/30/2003
16:08:57
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Do a fukcing search
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
 
6/30/2003
16:14:52
|  Amsoil Antifreeze and Coolant
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Norman,
Why 100% coolant is not advisable:
Pure ethylene glycol freezes at about 0 F. It is more viscous (having a relatively high resistance to flow) than water, and has a lower heat capacity. It really doesn't make a good coolant. Adding water reduces the viscosity and increases the heat capacity, and lowers the freezing point vastly improving it as a coolant.
As far as I am concerned, the best material is propylene glycol mixed with water. It has many of the same advantages as ethylene glycol mixed with water without the toxicity.
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For instance,
Amsoil Propylene Glycol Antifreeze and Engine Coolant combines the benefits of biodegradability, low toxicity and all-climate protection. It is safer for kids and pets than ethylene glycol coolants, which are sweet tasting and extremely toxic. It offers improved protection against liner pitting, and offers resistance to corrosion of aluminum, iron surfaces and solder points.
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A 50/50 mix will usually protect the coolant sufficiently from freezing. In extremely low temperatures, 60/40 is advisable (depending on the manufacturer). If more than 60% coolant concentrate is added, the boiling point will be lowered, which is of course undesired.
The corrosion inhibitors in are also extremely important.
You should buy a coolant tester. You can get it at any automotive supply shop for a few dollars. You extract a little coolant out with the device, and it will tell you if the mix is correct.
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Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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HotRodSRJ
Dodge Dakota
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6/30/2003
19:00:51
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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I would like to take this on from a pure objective science viewpoint rather than a commercial per se...with all due respect. And, I hate to rain on your parade Mr.Amsoil guy (and if you have been following my posts, I have supported all your synthetic oil claims and issues), but I have researched this to no end and even written articles about this very issue in several national rodding and performance magazines. Here goe, I report....you'all decide.
First, to answer the question. All manufacturers recommend a mix of 50/50 as the "perfect" blend for boiling, freezing and corrosion protection and heat transfer issues. Antifreezes, regardless of type have a relatively poor heat conduction number compared to pure water. Eythlene Glycol (EG-the green stuff) by itself is only about 55% the specific heat number of water which is 1.0 if you remember your chemistry class right. And Propylene Glycol (PG-usually the red or pink stuff) is worst yet! A 50/50 mix of EG has only 80% of the heat carrying properties of pure water. What this means is that for every ten gallons of water at temperature X, you will have to run 12.5 gallons of the 50/50 mix thru to get the very same heat removal at given temperature X. With PG it's actually more! A mix of 20% PG and 80% water will give a transfer rate of 0.310 BTU/(hr.ft2)/(F*/ft) @ 180*F compared to a number of only 0.185 for a mix of 60%PG and 40% water. As you can see .185/.310 is ~ 60% REDUCTION IN HEAT TRANSFER from 20% to 60% dilution rate!!! and that's alot of capacity to give up...don't do it. If this doesn't show you then you have failed math! Therefore the more antifreeze the less heat will be transfered to the radiator period. Here in the south, we go the other way on our performance cars and trucks.
The current products that feature Ethylene Glycol(EG) as opposed to Proplyene Glycol (PG) are as good due to the enhancing of corrosive inhibitors and surfactant additive packages with the exception of the toxicity issue.
I do agree that the toxicity is a small issue and PG is actually a food additive! But that is where the advantages stop and I have never met anyone that has been poisoned or kids, animals that were poisoned by EG. I recommend no matter what.....no more than a 50/50 mix or you can degrade the heat transfer of the system causing all kinds of problems. You could easily overheat with pure EG or PG.
With EG you can actually run less such as a 25%/75%water and transfer more heat for performance cars and trucks. I would add corrosion inhibitors to that however. Do NOT do this with PG. Only a 50/50 mix is recommended and anything less could cause corrosion and precipitation issues.
One other thing. If you decide to go with PG it is very hard to get all the EG out of the cooling system. You will have to drain and flush, drain and flush and drain and flush...well you get the idea! The result can be disasterous with all kinds of precipitation chaos going on when the two meet. The general rule unless you are starting anew is know and go back with the product that is living in your system! This helps if you have to "top off" as well.
I hope this helps explain this mystery to some.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
6/30/2003
21:29:21
|  RE: Coolant 50/50, Amsoil ??
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HotRodSRJ,
Thank you for the informative post. I understand the math ... VERY GOOD INFO. I have honestly never seen it explained quite that clear.
Not being a Chemist (or a coolant expert such as yourself), I thought that I laid out my best information with a very good introductory disclaimer;
"As far as I am concerned ..."
... and I thought that I did an exemplary job of hiding my commercial within the body of text containing what I thought to be industry standard for the layman ... perhaps more understandable than your textbook talk. My comments here are as yours ... with all due respect.
Was I wrong to suggest 60/40 in extreme cold conditions? I know certified mechanics that run a 20/80 coolant to water ratio in South Florida where you don't need "freeze" protection. Is the 20/80 enough protection for overheating, etc.
Thank you for your support ... "(and if you have been following my posts, I have supported all your synthetic oil claims and issues)". I hope you feel that I have made the greatest attempt to be fair, unbiased, educational, and helpful.
Feel free to correct (or add to) my comments anytime. I do not pretend to know "everything about everything".
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Thank you for the informative post.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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Reggie
Dodge Dakota
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6/30/2003
21:40:27
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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I am a mechanic and here are our rules:
Any more than 60/40 mix and temps go up quickly and the coolant will start to gell...any less then a 30/70 mix and rust and water pump wear will take it's toll on the coolant system.
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HotRodSRJ
Dodge Dakota
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7/01/2003
08:25:34
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Steven, Prestone engineers have always contended that 50/50 is a perfect blend! There may be some exceptions at the North Pole.
Reggie has a good point about too little antifreeze and you should take steps to assure the quality of your coolant. You can actually run pure water if you want as long as you buy the appropriate additives to prevent corrosion etc. A pure water radiator building only 10psi of pressure will be protected to 239*F. Alot of the "southern hotrodders" run smaller ratios such as myself in the summer to help heat transfer. I run 25% antifreeze and a bottle of corrosion inhibitors, WaterWetter and make sure the PH of the radiator stays above 8.5.
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JasonB
Dodge Dakota
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7/01/2003
09:55:43
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Thank you gentlemen, this one has been very informative.
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JimmyJ
Dodge Dakota
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7/04/2003
19:27:33
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Yeah, good info - and may I add the following for comments from you guys?
One thing to keep in mind. Even though water will transfer more heat, it still needs to reject it in the radiator section. And if the radiator isn't large enough the water "holds on" to more heat in the radiator section. So depending on the design-water will not transfer more heat than antifreeze (It will go back to the engine hotter than the higher concentration antifreeze).
I remember many years ago a guy wrote a computer program that had surface areas of the radiator and engine and he could change paramaters like heat input, outside temerature and coolant concentration, and unless the program was faulty the radiator size was decisive "more so" than the coolant concentration.
Also, I would recommend corrosion inhibitor/water pump lubricant if using a lower concentration antifreeze. Correct guys?
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01Motorsport
Dodge Dakota
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7/05/2003
02:52:28
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Great posts! Can anyone enlighten us on the pros and cons of orange (long-life) antifreeze versus green (standard). Is switching tolerable or detrimental? My '01 4.7 came with the orange type. Flush/fill less than every 5 years with orange, or switch to green and change annually?
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samtheman
Dodge Dakota
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7/05/2003
04:20:33
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Hot Rod? Do additives such as Red Line Wetter work? There is also one out there now I think called Motor Max or something. Thank You!
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
7/05/2003
17:14:39
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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samtheman,
Redline Water Wetter is primarily for "water only" systems --- not the 50/50 mix most engines run.
You have probably seen it used in Race Cars. Using it in a Race Car wont be a problem as they will most likely drain and re-fill the cooling system after each race. Water Wetter is also a "requirement" vs. coolant at races, since spilled coolant is like oil on the track --- whereas water will just evaporate.
I am not certain that it adds any benefits to a 50/50 mix in your Dakota.
IMHO - Save your money.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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HotRodSRJ
Dodge Dakota
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7/06/2003
08:51:41
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Please excuse the length of my replys and I will address a couple of points by request...and others. I have written many articles over the years on this very subject and it's hard to be brief with cooling science belieive it or not.
First for JimmyJ. I am a little confused at what you were trying to communicated with your comments about some guy with a computer program and the questioning of water vs antifreeze. Forgive me please it really did not make any sense to me per se. FWIW, as already pointed out, water has a specific heat number of 1.0. A 50/50mix of ethylene glycol is significantly lower (55 ish depending on additives) which means it's heat carrying capacity is significantly lower. That is a thermodynamic fact and no matter what the radiator size or design, the COOLANTs will function accordingly with their specific heat number. Perhaps your friend's computer program was addressing "laminar flows" or something other than specific heat numbers with radiators? There used to be myths about "slowing" or "holding" coolant in the radiator to in affect transfer more heat to the radiator over a given time. But this too is only myth, whereas in a closed-loop system holding coolant in the radiator will hold coolant in the block which means that because water will lose it's ability to soak up heat as it approaches it's corrected vapor point (boiling point at working pressure).....what this means is that as the coolant sits in the block it will disproportionately lose it's ability to carry heat away on a per unit basis and that heat is left behind to build. That is why more flow is always better in a radiator system period!
On the coolant types. The "Red vs Green" coolant wars as it's called is confusing to most. Usually all greenish antifreezes are ethylene glycol (EG) based. But they can be red in color also. Most red antifreezes are propylene glycol (PG) based and/or called Dexcool or “Dex” for short. These PG/Dex coolants are used in some modern vehicles and should be used with caution in other vehicles. What ever you have, never mix the two products….they are not compatible and only use distilled water with either! Mixing will cause byproduct precipitation chaos in your radiator and make a clogging mess! When topping off, KNOW WHAT BASED PRODUCT you have and use only the product base that is already in your system. Flushing a system and switching based products is very difficult. Getting the remnants of the old product out of the block is impossible to do, so only start anew with either antifreeze from a fresh installation. There are NOT significant advantages to either product and with new generation EG products, it’s as good as it gets! You can run EG in less than 50/50% water ratio profiles, but it is NOT recommended for PG products. Both products are formulated for iron or aluminum parts. One small disadvantage is that PG is not as good as heat carrier as EG is. So, if you are having overheating problems I would stick with EG.
On additives, WaterWetter is a good radiator additive in general regardless of mixing proportions. Does it do what it claims of reducing water temps. It could...depending on what is going on in your cooling system. WaterWetter, Purple Ice and a few others are additives that contain a concoction of additives that have differing functions. The main feature of these products is that they are "surfactants" that alter the surface tension of the coolant to help eliminate "hot spots" and air entrapment and/or cavitation of the water pump at high RPMs. The other feature of these products is that they will help a given unit of coolant absorb heat faster....but NOT MORE HEAT PER UNIT. So, when used in conjunction with high flowing pumps and sufficient radiator systems (to get rid of that extra heat) this increases the efficiency of the cooling system. I run them in all my hotrods and muscle cars for these very reasons. Do you need them in your everyday driver. Probably not and Mr. Roark's advice is solid, but cannot hurt either. If you are "hotspotting" due to air or "quenching" issues, these surfactants might help you keep from "gassing out" or expelling your coolant. FWIW, some of the newer coolants/antifreezes contain the very same ingredients as these additives, so it may be redundant to add! If you are running less than 50/50 mixes however, I would use them.
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Johnson
Dodge Dakota
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7/08/2003
05:38:16
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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I myself stick with the 50/50 and a bottle of water wetter. This has served me well for many years, in many Dodge trucks. No cooling problems here ever. I also change it yearly.
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AzDak
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2003
08:41:39
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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It's f--king hot here in AZ and I am going to be crossing Death Valley next week. I will be carrying extra water but are there any other precautions I should take?
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Ryan H.
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2003
09:51:20
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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I am going to try the distilled water and 2 bottles of water wetter myself to try and keep temps down while racing. Of course I'll go back to the 50/50 for the winter.
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Ryan H.
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2003
12:37:33
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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I'm gonna do the distilled water and 2 bottles of water wetter deal. Gotta keep the temps down at the track.
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blueballs
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2003
13:50:25
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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Thats it!!!! I'm buying a VW bug old school;)
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01Motorsport
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2003
23:02:00
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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I went by my favorite independent service shop today to check on antifreeze flush and fill for my '01 4.7. It has the factory red long-life version. The mechanic said that I could switch to green antifreeze, but said that an extra 20-30 gallon flush was needed to purge the system of the red type; a regular straight flush wouldn't work. Any remnants of the red would fuse with the green and become a gel-like substance. He also told me that green runs about 5 degrees cooler than red, backing up what HotRodSRJ said. I'm going with the flush and annual changes of the green.
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Arnie
Dodge Dakota
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8/02/2003
12:56:44
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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A respected automotive engineering magazine pointed out that Calcium present in tap water acts as a mild poison in automotive cooling systems.
As far as running straight water, I had an opportunity to analyze in detail a few warranty field return engines with low miles where the owner decided to run straight water, supposedly because water does a superior job of heat transfer. What the owners didn't count on was the nucleant boiling that occurs when there's no antifreeze in the coolant. The combination of low pressure from the suction side of the water pump and low boiling point of the coolant resulted in cavitation from nucleant boiling that pounded away at the aluminum walls, eroding the water jacket until the walls got thin and sprung a leak. Curiously, most of these engines were from Texas.
Bottom Line, don't use tap water.
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MNDakota
Dodge Dakota
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9/07/2003
22:26:08
| RE: Coolant 50/50 ???
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What adjustments should I make for sub-zero winters?
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