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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2003
10:20:48
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 Subject: AmsoilSponsor
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Steven see if you can get an answere from Lubrisol/ Amsoil staff. I have noticed that Redline uses moly in their oil and now Mobil1 is useing it too. I am sure it is a cost saveing thing. I am woundering why Amsoil is so set against it's use. What are the pro's and con's of it's use inside an internal combustion engine. Thanks!!!
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/25/2003
20:21:15
|  RE: AmsoilSponsor & Amsoil Position on Moly
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Sandman, I have taken a lot of time to prepare this because I know you are genuinely interested.
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The Amsoil Position on Moly:
Amsoil said they prefer not too use it over what they use currently and that Molybdenum is a controversial antiwear agent. Amsoil stated some time ago that they would not put any “solid-type” lubricant additives in their formulations. That of course was many years ago, and I have NO idea if they are running tests or even thinking about Moly in the future. Some oil companies are lowering the amounts of ZDDP (see below), and adding Moly to reduce costs and meet stricter regulations. I would guess everyone who is using Moly is working on lowering costs, but for the interim the idea and the advertising seems to be sticking with consumers. Another reason, as regulations drive the levels of ZDDP lower, something must make up the difference. I think Amsoil will skip Moly and add antimony compounds, which would provide the same benefits
I really do think Moly is unnecessary in engines based on the chemical analysis shown with the majority of virgin engine oils. Why have Moly ... to pass the Timkin Test ... sell more product ... perhaps just a good sales pitch. What I do know is the major oil companies use different levels of the antiwear additive ZDDP (zinc diakyl dithio phosphate), further described below. This additive chemically reacts with iron to prevent welding of moving metal surfaces. What happens is essentially a chemical polishing of the metal surface. The surface gets plated with either Iron Phosphate or Iron Sulfate, both of which are softer than the base Iron. The Zinc is also a temperature controlling carrier. When the two metal surfaces come in contact, a small amount of the surface ZDDP plating is “scraped” off of the surface. This is replenished by more ZDDP. This action prevents the metals welding through heat generated by high friction contact. This seems to be more than enough to prevent metal-to-metal contact. The ZDDP in the lubricant may last up to 20,000 miles and more, depending on the amount used. The Amsoil extended drain synthetic oils have a lot of ZDDP to go the distance. Amsoil, as we all know, is in the extended drain synthetic oil market. Amsoil was the first company to introduce synthetics for automobile use in 1972 (30 years ago), followed my Mobil in 1976. Amsoil also claims not to use Moly because it is not compatible with their current extended drain formulations.
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Scientific Information:
Molybdenum:
Molybdenum is a very hard metal with a number of industrial uses. It is combined with chromium in steel to make the steel harder and more resistant to bending. Most of the bicycle frames produced today use chromium and molybdenum steel. Because the steel is so much harder, the manufacturers can use less, thereby making the frame lighter.
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Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly):
Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly) has been used for decades in lubricating pastes and greases because it is slippery and forms a protective coating on metal parts. Moly exists as microscopic hexagonal crystal platelets. Several molecules make up one of these platelets. A single molecule of Moly contains two sulfur atoms and one molybdenum atom. Moly platelets are attracted to metal surfaces. This attraction and the force of moving engine parts rubbing across one another provide the necessary thermo chemical reaction necessary for Moly to form an overlapping protective coating like armor on all of your engine parts. This protective armor coating has a number of properties that are very beneficial for your engine.
The Moly platelets that make up the protective layers on your engine surfaces easily slide across one another. Instead of metal rubbing against metal, you have Moly platelets moving across one another protecting and lubricating the metal engine parts. This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance. This overlapping coating of Moly also gives protection against loading (perpendicular) forces. These forces occur on the bearings, and lifters.
Engineers and scientists tried for years to use Moly in motor oils but they were unsuccessful because they could not find a way to keep Moly in suspension. Once Moly was put into suspension it would gradually settle out. It was easy to see it come out of suspension because a black sludge would collect on the bottom of the oil containers. In engines it would settle to the bottom of the crankcase or clog oil pathways and filters. Engineers have overcome these obstacles. They have since developed a process that keeps Moly in suspension and it isn't filtered out.
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For the Record, and in layman’s terms (which I prefer):
All “base oils” reduce friction. Friction modifiers reduce the boundary friction even more. Moly, antimony, borate esters, ZDDP, all reduce friction as well as provide anti-wear properties.
Moly is not really new to oil, it's just that it's catching on more lately. It's been in oils for decades now. I believe it was in the 60s when some companies started adding it, and then dropped it because it did not perform as expected.
** Antiwear Agents (AW): There are times when the lubricating film breaks down, so the antiwear agents have to protect the metal surfaces. A zinc and phosphorus compound called ZDDP (zinc diakyl dithiophosphate) is a long-used favorite, along with other phosphorus and sulphur compounds.
** Friction modifiers (FM): These aren't the same as antiwear agents. They reduce engine friction and, so, can improve fuel economy. Graphite, molybdenum and other compounds are used.
However, Moly and ZDDP are both friction reducers and anti-wear agents as well. Borates and calcium's can also reduce friction.
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Conclusion:
No one has proven any downside to having Moly in motor oil (as of yet with the new technology). As far as the upside, it's easy to see that "in theory" wear numbers should be better with Moly in the oil, but from what I've seen of many oil analyses tests, I'm not so sure that's the case. A completely blind comparison of an experimental oil where the only variable between the two samples would be the Moly would (probably) show for sure whether Moly does indeed decrease wear.
From the information that I have been able to gather, there has never been a “controlled” test that measured the effects of Moly alone. I would think that a control test for the effect of Moly would be to start with an oil with no Moly and then add increasing amounts of Moly to it on subsequent oil changes. Assuming similar driving patterns, equal mileage and well broken-in engine (20-40k), we should observe any wear changes. Ideally however, one would need several vehicles of exact model and mileage and compare them side by side under the same conditions except for Moly content. This would be expensive and possible only with the assistance of a fleet mechanic or a corporation.
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Here is why I think oil formulators are beginning to use Moly:
ZDDP and Moly react similarly. ZDDP and Moly go into the oil solution and form organosulfur (carbon-sulfur) compounds. The zinc polyphosphates form a fluid glass, and it is this glass that lubricates the surfaces. The moly polycarbamates form a glass-like layer that lubricates the surfaces.
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I have been reading more and more and find that Moly is in most racing blends. It must be a secondary Extreme Pressure protection in case the normal AW temperatures are breeched. Redline is mainly a racing oil, and Royal Purple Racing oils have a lot of it. I bet you the proprietary Mobil 1 racing oils used in major races have it too.
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Again, I cannot speak for the chemists/engineers/marketers at Amsoil Headquarters. It is my viewpoint that Amsoil does not feel or think that Moly compounds are necessary in Amsoil motor oils. I have NO idea if they are running tests or even thinking about Moly.
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The jury is still out in my own opinion.
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Let me know if there is a point that I missed.
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Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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1/25/2003
21:41:45
|  RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Yes, I am aware of the evil empires that be are trying to get rid of ZDDP from oil. It is really a shame. I would rather have the ZDDP and not have an API rated oil unless I can find something better. Their is only two car companys on the planet that claim it kills the catalytic converters early and these companys are not know for their high quality cats to begin with. I have used moly grease since I was 8 in everything that required grease. The Army also uses moly grease almost exclusively. I have had timeken bearings that have lasted close to 20 years and look like new still. My Dad used to lube the bearing once a year with moly grease even if the milage did not call for it. It has to be used for SS firearm actions to prevent galling. I was always taught that it was not good to put in engine but I never asked why. I can remember haveing to buy powdered moly and graphite to mix or use dry in all kinds of applications. You do not see that anymore. I remember a company (From Old Hot Rod Magazines and Popular Mechanic) that used to sell an oil that had a alot of moly and graphite in it(circa 1960). I do not remember the name brand but their slogan was "The Black Oil". It had so much moly and graphite that it came out of the bottle black. They went out of business because of all the law suits for engine damage. As tempatures climed the graphite would melt and would coat everything in the engine as it cooled it would solidfy. THe moly would come out of solution and stick to the graphite. It did not take longe before the filter and the oil galleys became restricted!!! Even when you assembly anengine with moly fortified lithium based grease after you run the engine for 20 minutes at 2000 RPM you have to drain the fluid and change the fluid because the moly in the grease will plug the filter and force the system into bypass. I was woundering how companys like Redline and Mobil 1 had gotten around this! I used Redline when I used to race and have always had great results with their product.
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WoW
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2003
20:28:02
|  RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Can i just say ....... Wow !!!
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Lab Rat
GenIII
1/26/2003
21:03:26
|  RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Another application for moly:
Used in automotive reciprocating piston A/C compressors for many years as a break-in lubricant. Moly was applied to the ball of the actuating (connecting) rods before the rods were assembled to the pistons and swaged. Even after the equivalent of 100,000 miles the rods and sockets exhibited hardly any signs of wear under normal test conditions. Upon teardown and analysis, moly was still present in the socket as well. Primary lubricant was a pariffinc based mineral oil. Conclusion: moly contributed greatly to the long term durability of the compressor.
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chris
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2003
21:59:02
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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i talked to the guy who builds my employers race engine
the moly is used on break in , but to much can start to restrict the oil filters.
the oil pan ussaly come of after the dyno test and cleaned
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EyeTrip
R/T
1/26/2003
22:27:50
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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I like moly on toast, myself
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George
Dodge Dakota
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1/27/2003
16:21:36
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Lab Rat,
You are not comparing apples to apples. You are comparing apples to oranges. Compressors don't see the high temperatures and blowby gasses that are present in an engine. I for one would not want moly in my engine, unless I was a race car driver and rebuilt the engine every 500 miles. Race oils use moly because it's greatest benefit is at temperatures the normal driver will NEVER reach. Therefore NO benefit. If your Dak is not a racetruck you will get no benefit from moly, and maybe only problems. No solids in my engine!
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Lab Rat
GenIII
1/27/2003
19:27:13
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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George,
1) At what point did I support the use of moly in engines? Not once.
2) "Another application for moly", doesn't the obvious speak for itself? I never claimed that compressors were identical to engines ALTHOUGH they are both vapor compressors the latter not having a combustion cycle.
3) Compressors DO have blowby or the VE would be much higher than it is. Newer designs are more efficient but it still exists in all piston pumps.
4) Compressors experience much higher in-cylinder pressures than engines, as high as 3-4x, during the compression cycle.
5) Refrigerant oil, just like petro based motor oil, starts breaking down severely above 300 DEG F. If you don't think compressors operate under those conditions sometimes, you might want to think again. Normal discharge gas/oil temps easily run in the 200-230 DEG F range.
6) One thing I neglected to mention is the majority of the moly is flushed out during run-in, but what is held captive remains for the life of the compressor and poses no threat to the materials.
LR
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TTT
Dodge Dakota
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1/28/2003
21:33:45
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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TTT
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George
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
18:53:17
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Lab Rat,
I did not mean to "boil the blood" and make this an argument ... I was just trying to explain the differences. For example, in reference to your # 3 and # 5:
3) A compressor's blowby is clean compared to an engine blowby.
5) I think that motor oil is formulated for the higher temperatures from combustion that it encounters in the ring grooves and cylinder wall. Refrigerant oil needs to handle the heat from the head pressure, of course, but is also made wax free so it doesn't clog the expansion valve and other cold parts of the system (refrigerant oil is miscible in most refrigerants and travels through the refrigerant system and back to the compressor suction).
___________________
Definition of Miscible: (not for you LabRat, but for others in case they don't know), "Capable of being mixed; mixable; as, water and alcohol are miscible in all proportions." ...Gotta mention the Scotch and Water!
___________________
Thanks for the good debate. Hard to find among some of the visitors here.
G-Man
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Lab Rat
GenIII
1/29/2003
19:51:48
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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G-Man,
No blood boiled. My response did have a bit of a tone to it, not trying to offend.
Back to the topic:
3) Have to agree about the chemical composition of the gases. Combustion blowby introduces the chemicals that are mostly responsible for oil breakdown (sludge, acids, etc...)
5) Don't completely agree with you on this. Mineral oil, in general, has a limit of about 300 DEG F, no matter the use. Wax based, or pariffinic, oils were actually used by Ford for refrigeration some time ago. All the others were naphthenic. Paraffinic oils for engines (Q/State and Pennz) are nasty stuff in my book. If you want sludge and varnish, those are the ones to use.
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George
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
12:46:27
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Lab Rat,
Re: #5) Turbine oil has a much lower flash point than engine oil...the reason being that it doesn't need it, but it needs other attributes. Sure, both turn to black crust when way too hot.
Yes, some refrigerant oils are made from napthenic crude oils, but the point is that all wax is removed during the refining. Paraffinic crudes make the best motor oils, and if they create sludge or varnish it's not for that reason.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
19:13:32
|  RE: AmsoilSponsor
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The only oil that goes in my compressors after overhaul is Redline compressor oils!!!! I have not used amsoils yet if they make one but conventional oils are evil in book. THe origanl point of this thread by the way guys is that Redline and Mobil 1 are useing moly in their oils. I was woundering if any evidence indicated that it was inferior or supiorer(sp) to ZDDP. I was also wounder how they were able to keep it in solution? It seems like more companys would use it if it was a good thing. Seems like their must be another reason that no one else uses moly.
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JimD
Dodge Dakota
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2/12/2003
20:32:25
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Message:
Steve (Amsoil Sponsor) I just thought I'd let you know that someone else is posting amsoil SPAM here and he is not an advertiser or member so i told him to go away. Also, he offers no advice or help. Hope everyone reads this. Steve has helped me many times and he is a advertiser and member. Use him for your Amsoil.
JimD
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EyeTrip
R/T
2/13/2003
02:23:21
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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Damn JimD, you got that nose buried pretty deep eh?
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bumper
Dodge Dakota
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9/11/2006
10:37:01
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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let's bump some more
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SnakeOil
Dodge Dakota
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9/17/2006
16:18:13
| RE: AmsoilSponsor
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I use SnakeOil. It's 100% synthetic snake with no harmful additives. It has been proven to reduce enginer wear, increase milage, increase power and provide longer lasting erections.
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