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Joe
Dodge Dakota
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1/10/2003
22:45:16
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 Subject: RE: Cops Over The Line
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Did you see the little dog wagging his tail ?????????????????????????????????? Not a sign of aggression its a sign he wanted to play not chew on the officers ankles . My goodness dont they think before blowing off a shotgun ??Your right I wasnt there but had I been I sure as hell wouldnt have blown away the puppy , Thats all I have to say !
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Hurl
Dodge Dakota
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1/10/2003
23:28:04
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Da-popo,
Well said. There is no question that this officer could have waited until the dog actually got to him to decide what action to take. Certianly the 4' long shotgun would have served nicely as a bat against the dog (should it have proved agressive). That officer was NOT alone. The subjects were secure and being watched by other officers.
Killing the PUPPY was irresponsible! What kind of pu$$y would find it acceptable to kill a small dog?!?!?
The officer needs to resign and find another line of work. He crossed the line.
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figitdotcom
R/T
1/10/2003
23:39:16
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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ok there Da-popo ... anyone who has or has owned a dog knows EXACTLY what was in the mind of that dog .. hop out I'm FREE and I shall frolic, but WAIT! there is someone close that can play with me so I shall waddle up to him (I would say run but because of the brush that wasn't possible) man, put things in perspective ... not this incident I'm saying your life .. WHO goes into criminal justice, ANYONE that hears 16 weeks and you'll have a job and a lil' power ... so don't play like the "rules and regulations say" that you must SHOOT in a situation where you feel that your LIFE is in danger and blah blah because those "rules and regulations are phucked" This turkey hunitng phobe was lookng for a reason to pull his b/s issue pump. Notice the SEARGENT with the AR didn't squeeze off ANYTHING! The people wont and will never believe in your route. Man I served double hardship tours in basnia and s.korea and I never shot a mook b/c he CAME AT ME WITH A KNIFE! NEVER .. I just grabbed there weeboly ass heads and processed them. They can come in 10'a on an old shredder and I STILL WOULD'T PULL .. that's our govt .. but not our county sheeet obviously. He was back on the dust in 24 hours. Seriously man, I mean your repulsive for even thinking your side of thought. I am a convicted felon AMD borne, my mom is a federal court reporter ... I've seen both sides and yes drug smugglers .. kill them, murderers .. kill them, people who KILL puppies... AT LEAST FIRE AND BLACK LIST THEM!"
-m
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figitdotcom
R/T
1/10/2003
23:40:16
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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LEO really, we dont treat them like you treat one of our "suspects" ... get a grip man
-m
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Da-popo
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2003
00:42:36
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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OK lets see here
"WHO goes into criminal justice, ANYONE that hears 16 weeks and you'll have a job and a lil' power "
Ill Address this comment first. I have 2+ years of college, plus the police academy all of which I paid for myself. where I am from public safety jobs don't come easily. If you don't have a degree you might as well forget about it. Secondly. I went into this profession so that when this life ends I know I did the best I could. It has nothing to do with power or greed or finding an easy job.
" The people wont and will never believe in your route"
" Seriously man, I mean your repulsive for even thinking your side of thought."
OK there figit. Did I take a side?? Seems to me that the second sentence in my post addressed this as well as several other sentences through out my post. I AM NOT TAKING A SIDE in this. I wasn't there. I was not intending to offend anyone, I was simply attempting to expose the possibility that there is more to this story then can be shown by a tape. I was trying to get people to open their minds to other possibilities, then the one the media has portrayed.
"anyone who has or has owned a dog knows EXACTLY what was in the mind of that dog .. hop out I'm FREE and I shall frolic, but WAIT! there is someone close that can play with me"
I do own a dog and have owned one all my life. My current one I actually found while on duty. no tags no collar, and it wasn't reported to the humane society, by the people who lost it. However I know that if she saw someone close to me putting handcuffs on me, she would not come out to play, she would be coming to save me, like a loyal dog would do. And yes I have seen dogs that would wag their tail right before they bit someone.
Lastly figit, let me thank you for your service to this country. I am indebted to you, however I did not attack you or anyone else here. if you would like to discuss this I would be happy to. But I will not get drawn down into a name calling flame match because frankly I don't have time for it
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Ginther
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2003
03:40:01
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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I too am a LEO. Have been for 11years.
I watched that video several times. I don't think anyone can make a fair call since the most important few seconds of the video were blocked out, censored.
Sure, you can see the dog bounce around to the officer's right, then move back toward him. But as the dog approaches, you can't see what happens in those last few feet of travel.
I even found another site with a copy of the video and watched it there several times too. And again, they censored the video at the most important moment.
I guess the media felt they had to censor the video to keep from showing the actual shot and impact so as not to traumatize anyone with graphic content. Or maybe there was something else they didn’t want us to see?
I have yet to find a copy of the video that shows every frame. And without being able to see the most important part of the video I will not second guess the officers decision. And any of you who think you can make a fair judgement from the incomplete video the media is releasing are just wrong.
A lot could have happened in that last split second. That dog could have completely changed his demeanor and charged, growled, jumped, snapped, etc…. Who knows?
If anyone has a link to a complete, unaltered, uncensored version of the video, please post it. Until then I will not make a judgement based on the incomplete video I’ve seen.
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yates-in-DE
*GenIII*
1/11/2003
11:14:16
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Well here is an uncut version.
Uncut Version of that film.
Later,
Lynn
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Hurl
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2003
12:26:23
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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As a LEO you have the unusual job requirement of having to choose when to use deadly force.
The actions of any LEO boils down to ensuring their own safety and the safety of the "suspects".
In this case, the "suspects", who were visible in the car, were ordered out of the vehicle and back toward the LEO's. The car was still an unsecured area, perhaps there were others in the vehicle awaiting their opportunity to ambush the LEO's.
Given the fact that there were many other LEO's on scene to watch the suspects and the vehicle, it would seem that this particular officer (Eric) had the opportunity to explore options other than "deadly force" against this small pet.
As I stated in earler posts; the shotgun would make a nice "stick" to push the doggy away. I say "doggy" because this was no large breed dog coming after him with teeth showing. This LEO screwed the pooch (no pun inteded). He has demonstraited that he lacks the good judgement required to make deadly force decisions.
Had that been me, my family and my beloved pet, I would have gone after the officer and lashed out after the shot was fired. What would young Eric have done to me? Shot me? There is a good chance he would. Is it wise to allow someone who lacks judgement carry a weapon and decide who lives or dies? I say no. Fire the bastard.
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The Dude
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2003
14:19:46
|  RE: Cops Over The Line
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So, you would have been shot, too. Brilliant.
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mpil1
GenIII
1/11/2003
16:41:53
|  RE: Cops Over The Line
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As for "WHO goes into criminal justice, ANYONE that hears 16 weeks and you'll have a job and a lil' power"
First off you need to research and think before you run your mouth. Where I live as well as in many other parts of the country you must have 60 college credits (2 years) to be eligible to even apply for the City Police. Then you have to pass a test AND be in the top percent of those who passed to even enter the academy. Then you have to pass the academy. If you think that law enforcement is an easy proffession to get into and stay in, then the joke is on you.
As for the 'lil power' part, thats not what its about. For most law enforcement officers its about protecting the people and tyring to keep peace. You people have some jaded veiw of what a police officer is. "He is simply a machine that is there to personally make my life miserable, he's almost always wrong; hes needs to follow the rules the way I want them to be." Well the real story is actually quite different. He's a man, like you and me; he's real. He wakes up in the morning, gets ready for work, kisses his wife and his little daughter each day before he leaves to do his job to support them, like you and I. I say his job, the one where he leaves that house in the morning knowing that he's gonna go put his life on the line to protect people, the very people that don't give two damns about him, that curse him, falsely accuse him to save their own ass, that call him power hungry. His job is to enforce laws, and if he's caught someone breaking a law his job is to take the necesarry steps as defined by the government, not him. The court decides the punishment, not him. Its not his fault your have to pay a $400 speeding ticket, its actually yours!! So why are you mad at him??? While at work these men and women will get into situations and have to make split second decisions most of us couldn't imagine let alone handle. There is no rules and regulation book that can tell the human mind how to act in a split second; its up to the good judgement of the officer. Thats where the strong are separated from the weak. There are irresponsible ones out there that need to rethink their line of work. People take these examples and brand all law enforcement officers with that image. Well, truth is that the responsible, sensible, just law men and women far outnumber those cases such as what this topic is about. We also can blame the liberal media for painting a dark image of law enforcement. Something bad happens, its all over the news. How about the hundreds of times a day all over the world that an officer puts his life on the line to save the sorry asses of those who hate them? The media sure doesn't take notice to that do they?
I understand what I have written here has strayed off the subject at hand. I want to say that I in no way siding with the officer in the topic. I am (and I'm sure many others are) just sick and tired of people's false views of what law enforcement is. I'm tired of people branding all officers as bad because the actions of a few, and I'm tired of prejudiced remarks as I quoted above. You don't like law enforcement??? Maybe some people need to stop and think of what life would be like if they had their way with no law enforcement.
And for the record, I am not in the law enforcement profession.
Mpil1
'02 SXT CC, 3.9L, 5-spd, 4x4, Trac-Loc...Not enough Mods Yet!!!
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The Dude
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2003
17:38:40
|  RE: Cops Over The Line
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The real enemy here is Real Player.
Gaaack!
Someone find a WMP or Quicktime link.
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Ginther
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2003
20:51:44
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Even with the un-edited version, it's stil hard to tell. I agree, RealPlayer sucks!
Oh BTW - Mpil1 - Thanks for the support. You can only imagine my thoughts toward his "post".
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DAKDTP
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2003
22:47:59
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Ginther-i support you and all "police officers" 100% until the TRUE facts come out of the case. My father has been a LEO 24+years now. People dont understand the stress officers go through day in and day out. A LEO is on duty 24hrs a day. It isnt your basic 9-5 computer networking job(YATES-IN-DE)
YATES-IN-DE- stay in the computer business bud. You'll never make it as a POLICE OFFICER. You post your liberal rhetoric on this website that is supposed to be about our trucks. Go to a liberal forum where you can post this nonsense. You werent at the scene you have no idea what went on so shut up! It's only a dog man! I hope your not losing sleep over this. I wouldnt want you to lose sleep and make a wrong decision at your computer networking job.
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Lab Rat
GenIII
1/12/2003
00:11:58
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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"It's only a dog man!"
Hahahaha...how 'bout we shoot you and tell your family "it's only your kid, man!".
The THP had no right to call a felony stop just because money blew off the roof of their car AND there were no reported robberies anywhere, repeat, anywhere in the entire area. Get a grip, both departments were f'n wrong and the jerk who shot the pup needs to be jerked off the streets!
Bad cops are just that and they exist in every police dept. in the entire US. Time to get rid of them all.
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Iron Man
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
00:50:12
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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It's just a freakin' dog......get over it...
It was a justified felony stop. All the victims on this site feel free to seek counseling because of what you've experienced.
All the people that bad-mouth the police are probably bitter because they've commited a crime and they were busted.
Time for people to get a life.
Losers
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Hurl
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
01:13:40
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Iron boy, you're right, it must have been a justified felony stop. Most robbers I'm aware of toss the cash and credit cards out the window... Absolutely no crime was observed, simply stupidly assumed (see the cash out the window comment).
Fortunately there are more of us out there who feel this cop oversteped his bounds than those who think he was justified. I'll lay you odds that the cop is seeking employment elsewhere when this is over.
You're exactly the kind of brain trust I'd hate to see with a badge and gun.
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tank
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
01:15:49
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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figitdotcom and yates-in-de, hope you never need help from the police cause they should take their time responding to your house for a burglary, robbery, rape, or HOMICIDE! etc.. your a.. holes.
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The Dude
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
02:22:07
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Guys, I've been coming to this website for a long time now, and Yates-in-DE is easily one of the nicest members on here. You guys are putting him down for his views? This is freakin' America. The United States. My father was a police officer for 28 years, and he is now retired. I usually support the decisions of LEO.
I don't think the officer should have shot the dog, but I wasn't there, so who am I to be passing judgement. It's just my opinion. I have no idea what kind of actions should be brought upon this officer if any. I may not 100% agree with Yates-in-DE, but he has a right to say what he said.
Many of you have good points and interesting opinions, and you are all entitled to them.
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bowtiecrusher
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
02:39:09
|  RE: Cops Over The Line
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well 100%of the USA have and inforce the leash law down south they just go a little overboard
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BigJoe
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
02:57:47
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Maybe I'm an idiot, but all I've done is quick skim these posts, and my computer sucks to the point that watching streaming video is useless, but I got a few questions/statements.
1: what exactly was the felony they were being pulled ove for?
2: Even a small dog can rupture someone's nut if they bite someone. And I've seen dogs go from wagging to..... evil real quick.
3: I might be an idiot, but if they had everyone out.... why didn't they shut the car door..... especially if they saw a damn dog? Shouldn't it have been contained until animal control arrived?
4: I know near Chicago (maybe not the city itself, but the burbs usually) its pretty easy to be a cop, you just need to be a high school grad, have driver's liscence, no felony convictions, and pass a couple of tests then move into a certain area within six months. The city of Joliet addvertises how easy it is on the radio (96.7 FM 967willrock.com)
5: You don't know until you're there man, maybe they cop had a bad experience where some little dog bit him before, and this was a close reminder. You can't expect a cop to forget things that happened in the past or they will always be unprepared in the future.
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Hurl
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
03:18:34
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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BigJoe, you're not an idiot and your points are valid... to a point.
The LEO's could not close the doors as this would mean approaching the not-yet-secured vehicle.
Maybe the cop once had a bad experience with a minority... Does that allow/excuse him from using excessive force on minorities the future?
Discharge of a weapon is a serious matter. The fact that the victim was a dog is of no matter. Killing someones beloved pet could very likely lead to immediate retaliation by the pet owner. You can see how quickly the problem can grow. He could have to immediately decide whether to shoot the angry pet owner who is coming at him.
The LEO had other options at the time. If his judgement is skewed when it comes to using deadly force, should we wait until he kills a person with his itchy trigger finger?
He needs to pay for the trauma he caused the family. He needs to be relieved of any duty which requires use of a firearm.
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Da-popo
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
03:35:24
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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See the really interesting thing about law enforcement is that you never know. I would definitly think it would be funny if I saw money and credit cards blowing off the roof of a car. Yes I would probably perform a felony stop on a vehicle that had this occuring. Why? Because I would rather make a mistake and take someone out in a controlled fashion. As opposed to walk up on a car and be faced with a gun, and be shot or have to shoot someone. It is safer for me and safer for them. It is easy to monday morning quarterback someone after the fact. But on the street we always have to think on the side of safety and the worst possible thing that could go wrong. That is how we all go home every night to the families that we love.
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Hurl
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
03:58:00
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Da-popo, I understand your point. Police are accountable for their actions. The fact that they're police does not excuse gross error.
I would like to ask you a question. Lets say you saw the wallet, credit cards, money etc. flying off the roof and you pulled them over as a felony stop would you maintain your stance after finding a family on vacation?
Yes, we're going to "monday morning quaterback" this cop.
No weapons were reported.
No crime could be determined.
Failure #1 of the police department was the inability to properly process and dispatch the initial "complaint".
Failure #2 of the police was that the responding officers did not ask for proper information regarding the dispatch.
Sure the officers need to excersize proper safety protocols but they should have known that no real crime was reported and no weapons were ever reported. If I were a cop I know I'd sure like to know if any weapons were reported and I would want as much information on the complaint as possible... for my own protection.
From a safety perspective, the car should have been secured ASAP. They knew dogs were in the car. It would have been in their best interest to contain them without delay. The best place for containment would be IN THE CAR with the DOORS CLOSED.
This whole thing stinks of incompetence.
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Da-popo
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
06:19:56
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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I would maintain whatever I felt was necessary to be safe. I don't believe there was an original dispatch. This was a proactive traffic stop for a suspicious circumstance, not a stop in reaction to a dispatch. What this means is that everything the officer knows he has to find out on his own. More officers are killed on proactive stops then any other way, this is because there are so many unknowns. Am I saying the officer was 100% right no. Am I saying the officer was 100% wrong no.
I have seen videos of officers killed because they didn't take proper precautions. If it can be found look for the Mark Kotz (sp) video he was an trooper in a southern state that was killed because he didn't take proper precautions. He thought he had a situation under control he had a completely cooperative subject, that was smiling and laughing with him. He had found nothing in the car after he searched it and all seemed to be going well. He went to pat the subject down, After getting the subjects permission, and was shot and killed for $10.00 worth of marijuana. The total time between them laughing in front of his car and his death was less then thirty seconds.
So no I would not have released control of a situation until I knew exactly what the story was. Not what the people said, not what I believed, but what I could guarantee was the truth. I have had suspects that could tell you any lie they wanted to and you would believe it. There was no way as of yet for them to gurantee what was going on.
I know of troopers that have taken large amounts of coke and other drugs from people that looked like retired grandparents. My point is that looks can be very decieving, and you can never trust what someone tells you.
Lastly I see quite a few people that are passing judgement simply based on what the media reports. I can almost guarentee that no one has seen the written statement from either the trooper or the family. Also I pretty well bet no one has seen the video from start to finish unedited. (I can't guarentee that because I haven't seen the last copy posted by yates). However if they have I would guess the video would be at least 10 minutes or more in length. We all need to get all of the facts and have some idea of the tactics used for law enforcement before we try to determine what is right or wrong.
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Da-po-po
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
08:45:20
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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OK I must rescend my statement about not seeing the whole video. Where did you find that video yates??? Very good post. Also the troopers name that was killed was Mark Coates. If anyone can find a video of his incident and post it I would appreciate it. It very graphically illustrates how fast a normal "low risk" traffic stop can become deadly.
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DAKDTP
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
10:48:17
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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Also i forgot to add, going after a numerous police officers is pretty stupid and that is gonna get yourself killed. I gaurantee that if you tough guys that say you would of went after the LEO would have been crapping in your pants the whole entire time and wouldnt of done anything.LEO's go into a situation assuming the worst even if it is a family. But you guys really need to get over it,it was a dog and can be replaced.GET OVER IT!
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The Dude
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
12:48:24
|  RE: Cops Over The Line
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Da-po-po, I think I've seen that video you are talking about. It's the one where the trunk of the car is open and the officer is talking to one or two subjects and one suddenly grabs him around the ankles and the other goes for his gun? Then like two more guys get out of the car and they drag him off camera and shoot him?
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Mannix
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
15:13:00
|  RE: Cops Over The Line
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60+ hours of college and a GED? Is that supposed to be impressive? Come on, bro. Cops have the crappiest job on the planet, get paid very little for a very important job, and get little or no respect. This is why they have such a disproportionately high number of a$$holes in their ranks. The 85% of LEO's out there who are hard working and honest need more support in elevating the proffesion to the staus it deserves.
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Ginther
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
16:51:15
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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I found a copy of the vid that works with windows media player. It's not blurred at the point of the shot either.
While it's still poor quality, you can see the whole thing. It looks to me like the dog bounces out of the car at first, but then takes a quick turn toward the officer and charges him pretty hard. The officer backs up quickly for several feet before the shot. The dog kept coming.
Even though its blurry, it looks like the dog's head is up, and like he may be raised up on his back feet.
After seeing the dog run hard at the officer, and the fact his head is up and it looks like he's possibly jumping up at the officer, I'd have to say it looks like he did the right thing to avoid being bit.
And as far as spraying the dog with pepper gas. Yeah right. How in the world do you expect him to put the shotgun down, or throw it over his shoulder, retrieve the pepper gas from his belt (if he even had any), aim and spray it all in about 1.5 seconds.
If anyone can post the windows copy of the vid I have, LMK. Maybe I can e-mail it to someone here. It's just over 4mb.
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phillycop
Dodge Dakota
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1/12/2003
17:22:08
| RE: Cops Over The Line
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this is for da-popo,
you said "I have 2+ years of college, plus the police academy all of which I paid for myself. where I am from public safety jobs don't come easily"
Ha Ha Ha
Come to Philadelphia, the only requirement to become a cop is to be black or female, they will hire you on the spot!!! Sorry, if you are white, no job for you.
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