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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
10:13:08
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 Subject: Advice/Insight needed....
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Hello to all...
I am in the midst of buying a new audio system for my 2000 Dakota Club Cab. I have the 4, 6 3/4 Alpine speakers, a 4-channel Alpine amp (MRP-F200) and will be getting the head unit (CDA-9807) in a few weeks. My original idea was just to have the amp power the 4 speakers, but after hearing the real bonus of having a subwoofer, I am now thinking of buying a sub. Now, I don't really want 2 subs, but was thinking of one of the alpine 12" subs. First of all, do they make custom enclosures for our truck to hold one sub, will the Alpine amp I have suffice for this sub, and I'm guessing that I want to power the front speakers with the amp on the other two channels for the sub. I'm no auto audio genius and would appreciate opinions, comments and suggestions from those of you a lot more versed at putting together a good system. I don't need home-shattering bass or ear-blistering sound (I have 42-year-old ears), but I also still want a lot of sound.
Thanks,
David
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
12:43:17
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I love alpine products, except the options on there headunit, you have to pay alot more to get the same options out of an alpine as some other units.
in my personal experence alpine amps are under rated. I don't think you would be able to push a type r 12 with that amp but should be fine with either the type s or type e.
There really are no boxes built for a single 12 inch woofer, so you would have to use a q-logic on the seat or build a custom box. the nice part about the q-logic or a box you built is it could be easily removed when you need the space and if you have a toolbox or bedciver you could put it in there until you wanted to hook it up again.
or you will have to build/get a custom box built for under the back seat, I assume were speaking of a cc. otherwise truck box behind the seat of a single cab.
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
13:36:44
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Thanks for the reply...
I notice that on Q-Logic they have only a 8" subwoffer custom built box for the back seat. Will and 8" sub give me decent bass sound...I don't need it to be overpowering, but I want to hear a "thud" rather than a "tap"...
David
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
14:40:55
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Also, what would be the recommended size--8, 10 or 12 inches? I want to know it's there, but I don't want to shake houses.
David
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
16:15:09
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I personally love 12's. Right now I am running one 12 sealed and its just enough to get my chect to shake like I want it too.
an eight will give you some good audible sound, but don't expect it to hit and beable to feel it, unless it is a really good 8. jl audio makes a stelf box that goes in the tooltray has an amp and is one 8w6 which is a great sub.
when I said q-logic I meant one of the universal boxes. I'll take pics of my setup tonight or tommorrow I'm just about done.
I had been haveing problems with my box leaking and it actually blew a screw out that was holding in the subwoofer. I sealed the sub to the box with silicon and put it back in the truck at about 2:30am today on the way to work I realized I forgot to actually connect the wires to the sub inside my bullet proffed sealed enclosure. lol sucks now I have to doo it again and try and reseal the box.
for one eight I have a pic. not sure whos truck that built a small sealed box and cut the center console to go around it. this came out real nice in my opinion. If you have email I'll send you a link to it.
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
16:42:27
| RE: Advice/Insight needed....
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Most appreciated. I included my email in this post.
Thanks for your help,
David
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
18:36:31
| RE: Advice/Insight needed....
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you got mail.
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JMII
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
18:51:43
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A good, single 8" sub will be plenty, it will thump hard if powered correctly in the right sized box. 12" are overkill unless your into bass heavy music like rap or trying to build a seriously loud system.
Can you bridge the two rear channels of that amp? If so then do it! Does it have a crossover? If not better get one. Maybe the radio has one? Sorry I'm not up on Alpine's lastest gear.
Use the radio's built in power to run the rear speakers, that will be plenty for them, use the amp to power the fronts. See my system linked below for more info/ideas.
- John
http://home.mindspring.com/~jntmoore/truck/home.html
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
20:34:32
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That's the problem...I'm not very technically savvy about audio setups...I believe they can be bridged, but what exactly am I doing and how does this benefit the subwoofer sound?
Thanks...Forgive my ignorance :-)
David
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
20:40:29
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And what does having a "crossover" do for you?
David
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ricky
Dodge Dakota
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5/12/2003
21:05:30
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ok ..il just give my opinion...if you got a 4 channel amp ..use it to power the 4 door speakers....get another amp..and fit it to a 8 or 10....alpine makes a mono amp(single channel for subs) put your sub amp on low pass(crossover) and that should be just enough for a little hum for you truck....remember keep it clean and simple...it cost to blow out your windows...and windows are expensive too( i use to compete in sound offs in my earlier days)i now have a mild system that sounds clean as hellit is all rockford fosgate < 4 6 1/2 with tweets...2 subs..2 amps...cd player> i love it ....hope this helped you...later
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ramhead
Gen II
5/12/2003
21:12:54
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David, If you want a great sounding single sub that fits under your seat, check out JL Audio. They make a custom box for the Dak, and you can get it in a 10". I personally went with a sealed box setting above the seat with 3 JL 10w-0's, but sometimes I do miss the backseat.
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
01:25:58
| RE: Advice/Insight needed....
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the rear channel on his alpine amp can be bridged. I have the same amp myself in my garage. I don't agree that one twe;ve is ovekill but maybe thats just me and I like to feel bass, I also was hitting 147db when I had two so I got used to that driveing around every day.
david the setup I sent you earlier will be probable just right. make sure you listen too the square solo baricks somewhere first though. I personnally don't like the sund of them my self they do beat but I think the quality is alittle lacking. I'd say a good eclipse, kove audio, jl audio or image dynamics sub would sound good.
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
08:46:32
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So when I bridge the real channels, I'm "combining" the power output of those two channels to target that power into the Sub? When I do bridge the amp, what kind of wattage will I be throwing out (I'm guessing either 100 or 150)...?
You guys have been great. I really do appreciate the advice and comments.
David
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
09:01:00
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Ramhead: Checked out JL Audio's website, but I see only an enclosure for the Dakota with the 8" subwoofer.
JMII: Yes, Each set of channels has a crossover switch for either normal, mid-high and subwoofer speaker ranges.
David
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JMII
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
18:29:52
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conig - 147dB is going to kill our friend David here I fear. I hit over 136dB with my 1st "big" system and it was more than enough to win contests, make my 18 year-old ears hurt and collect fines from the cops. For a daily driver anything in the 130dB range is fine. I've always considered 130dB the point at which things get loud... thats the level most concerts are at and most folks leave those with thier ears ringing. Personally I do not want to be wearing a hearing aid any time soon so I've cut back on my jamming and I'm only 32! This is why (like Ricky) my current system is so "small" with only 330 watts, one 8" and four 6.5"s
David - to answer your questions:
There is no need to waste the amps power on your rear speakers - they are in a poor location and will just drag the sound stage backwards which is bad thing overall. So, just power the fronts and the sub with the amp & run the rear speakers with radio itself.
The bridged channel will send twice (or maybe even four times) the power to the sub which it needs because it's bigger and heavier. Check to see what ohm load you can run in bridged mono (maybe someone here that had that amp can tell you) and buy that ohm sub. For example most amps will run a 4 ohm sub nicely in this configuration, so get one of those. If you looking at a dual voice coil model (DVC) sub then you'll need a 2 or 8 ohm model which can be wired to a 4 ohm load. Sorry if this sounds confusing, but you need to know what your buying or you might get the wrong thing and fry your amp.
The crossover spilts the signal between the bass and the mid-high range of frequencies. If the bass gets into your smaller door speakers they will either sound like crap or blow since they can't handle that stuff. Sending high frequencies to the sub will drag your sound stage backwards (bad!) so that's why a crossover on it helps.
Based on the info others have given about the amp I'd say it will do the job nicely, now you just need to pick out a sub and put it all together (wiring and such). Keep in mind the best subs in the world are no good if not installed in the correct box, so you'll have to figure out your air space first. Then either build a box yourself (not good if your new to this) or buy a pre-fabbed one that's the right size and type (sealed vs ported). Once again the speaker you chose will determine this. Those JL Audio boxes with matched subs are very nice but can get costly.
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
21:14:53
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JM,
Again, thanks so much for your help. According to the Alpine MRP-F200 amp specs, it is 4 ohm bridged at 180W. And the amp does have crossover switches to allow for the frequency splitting.
Just out of curiosity and your own taste, what subwoofer size and brand would you buy and would you put it in a sealed or ported box (the enclosure seems to be untouchable for me--to expensive, and I have a wife :-) )?
I've read that a sealed box will give you a more sharper bass hit, while the ported sounds a little more deeper (I have one of thos on my PC here and love the sound of it). I'm a Led Zeppelin fan, so the rhythm section with all its bass are important.
I was quite confused before this thread, but with yours and other folks help here, I'm really becoming educated and I really do appreciate it.
David
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
21:16:21
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Sorry, make that 4 ohm at 100W...that the continuous power rating...
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/14/2003
10:26:38
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ported/ verse sealed doesn't have a definate anwser. sealed tends to have better transient response(what that means I don't know)
but heres my experence. ported is better for things like rap rock and bass notes that get alittle dragged out. sealed for things like techno and quick bass hits.
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JMII
Dodge Dakota
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5/14/2003
18:30:14
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"Just out of curiosity and your own taste, what subwoofer size and brand would you buy and would you put it in a sealed or ported box"
Kicker Solobaric 8" L5 in a sealed box - that's whats going in my truck as soon as I get the $ The Kicker Solos are designed to work in tiny boxes so you can save room, plus thier radical square design increases surface area - thus an 8" pushes as much air as a 10". They require more power than other speakers but really excel when pushed hard. I like sealed boxes... more on that issues below. I perfer 8" and 10" because they react quickly since they are light-weight. 12" and 15" are heavy and thus slower to move - which is great for deep bass, but can sound messy with some kinds of music since they can't keep up. For the record I listen to a little bit of everything but prefer techno.
"I've read that a sealed box will give you a more sharper bass hit, while the ported sounds a little more deeper (I have one of thos on my PC here and love the sound of it). I'm a Led Zeppelin fan, so the rhythm section with all its bass are important."
In general (since every sub/box combo is different) I'll say this: sealed is a tighter sound with a more rapid response to quick drum beats (great for bass guitar!). Sealed is generally the prefered box for SQ (sound quaility) because their frequency response is very linear - basically the bass notes are truer. Also sealed boxes are easy to build if you going that route - you can be as much as 20% off the given specs and it will still sound pretty good. Sealed boxes tend to require more power but are smaller then ported ones, so for a truck sealed works well if you've got the amp juice.
On the other hand ported boxes are "boomy" and lose sounding. They are better for SPL (sound pressure levels) because the port acts to amplify the bass alot but only in a narrow band of frequencies. If built and tuned properly a ported box sounds great. However this is difficult for DIY guy and if it's off even 5% it can really mess up the tunning and sub-bass roll-off (which will blow your speakers!). Port boxes also suffer from port noise or turbulence as the air rushes out the port you'll get a whisle-like or "huff-huff" type noise. So, ported boxes are loud (sometimes as loud as TWO subs in a comparable sealed box), but the trade off is sloppy bass - lack snappy-ness (if that's a word) and little sub bass rumble if tuned too high.
Give a demo listen somewhere to various subs and boxes with about the same power your going to be using to see which you perfer. Keep in mind bass response goes UP once inside the vehicle so a weak sounding box in a store will be much louder once installed.
Just as an FYI I have a ported box for my home theater system because of the loudness issue. The only way to get big bass in such a large space (living room) was to go louder and ported does that nicely. My other choice would have been lots of expensive power into multiple sealed subs - and wife was not going to the "speakers everywhere" look!
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/14/2003
21:23:38
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JM...
Again, thanks for all the time and effort you've put into your posts to me.
In regards to the Kicker Solobaric 8"--would that work for my 4 ohm amp (I notice there is Dual 4 ohm and a Dual 2 ohm--which confuses me)...And would my amp (bridged at 100W RMS) be powerful enough?
David
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/15/2003
14:44:09
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you should have enough to move an L5. dual 2ohm is what you would want wired in parallel would give a 4ohm load.
you would do this with a wire running from the positive on one voicecoil to the negative on the other voice coil, and then positive to the remaingin positive and negative to the remaining negative.
if that doesn't help rockfords got a good woofer wireing wizard that will probable help.
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/15/2003
19:09:32
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Trying to find an authorized Kicker dealer on the Internet is proving to be rather tough. The closest retail store from me is 45 minutes, so an online order would be nice. So far, I've found only a few, and they're top buck for the 8L5 (around $150)...Unauthorized and I have seen them for close to $80 less. I don't like the though, however, of not having the Kicker warranty.
It's coming down to the wire now. I have a friend who is willing to build the enclosure for me, so now I just have to settle on the sub--Alpine, Rockford, MTX or Kicker. I must meditate awhile and make said decision :-)
David
P.S. Thanks for your help as well, conig!
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Jeff W
DakotaEnthusiast
5/15/2003
21:02:59
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I've been following this thread as I'm pretty clueless when it comes to audio. Very informative. This thread is what this site is supposed to be about. People helping people.
Anyway, David, I stumbled across this guys ebay auctions. He's got some demo subs & amps for very cheap. Thought you might be interested
Auctions
'02 Sport 4.7 auto, Gibson exhaust, homebrew K&N cold air, 275/60 BFG Radial T/A's, Infinity CD w/Pioneer & Infinity spkrs & Kenwood powered sub.
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/16/2003
09:52:15
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How do you folks feel about purchasing from an unauthorized dealer of a particulat subwoofer brand? Too risky to go without a warranty?
I ask because I have found subwoofers I want for considerably less, but of course, without the manufacturers' warranty.
David
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/16/2003
11:04:07
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personally giveing your amp I would just make sure they will accept the sub back if it doesn't work right when you get it. otherwise with the power you have and the level bass you want I 'don't think the sub will ever blow, and kicker wouldn't cover something like it being kicked.
but that decision is upto you. I'm sure theres people who have bought from unauthorized dealers and never had a problem, or more people like me that have and have never utilized a warrenty and probablie never will.
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JMII
Dodge Dakota
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5/19/2003
11:51:22
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www.sounddomain.com is an authorized online dealer... but yep that sub is $150 a pop. Personally I'd only buy from someone who would guarantee that the sub works - for atleast 90 days - if it's fine after that chances are it will last forever. I've never blown a sub, but also know what I'm doing ;) I think most blown subs come from over power or incorrect box design. Your certainly not going to be overpowering it with only 100 watts, in fact as soon as $ become available you might considered upgrading the amp, that subs really wants more power. However you may be happy with it's sound at 100 watts... if so then fine, its your system after all :)
Jeff W - I offer advice on this stuff because I've been doing it awhile and notice most people get ripped off or sell themselves short but not knowing what they are doing or even buying. I've made all the mistakes possible (just about!) so best to pass along what I've learned - no sense having other people make the SAME mistake over and over :) thanks for the feedback!
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/19/2003
13:14:41
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JimII,
Yeah, I noticed that price on sounddomain.com, and there was another website, also, who were authorized dealers and were selling the subwoofer for the same price. Having been to many websites selling Kickers, I actually was able to find it for $60 less...It's tempting, and like you, I don't feel comfortable buying a piece of electrical equipment without a warranty. That alone might make me go with another subwoofer--we'll see.
David
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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5/19/2003
21:44:18
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Hey JMII not sure if the previous about boxes was directed at me or what. personally I like 12's I had 3tens in my bronco and they simply couldn't go low enough some times. For a sub to be quick personally I feel its more about the suspension.
JMII since your thinking l7 check out edesignaudio.com and check out elemental designs 8 inch sub. I'ts killer I'm thinking of getting one of there 15a's housed in a one cuft enclosure. but I'm also looking at resonant enginering. ed for soundquality resonant for spl. I think I'm starting to move more towards spl my self.
For some of the ported box thoughts posted earlier. with a sloted port you get virtually no port noise and if tuned low enough they remain pretty quick. I like mine around 30 35hz. not the best for spl.
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David
Dodge Dakota
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5/21/2003
09:24:39
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Well, I pulled the trigger and purchased the Kicker S8L5 8" subwoofer. Thanks to all for your help.
Next up--the head unit. I'm going with an Alpine CDA-9807. Probably order that in a few days, and then it's off to a friend's house for the install.
And just in time for the live Led Zeppelin release! Ah, life can be so beautiful (provided you have enough of a credit limit left on your card :-) )
Let you all know how it the system sounds once it's in.
Thanks again,
David
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JMII
Dodge Dakota
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5/21/2003
10:46:03
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"life can be so beautiful... provided you have enough of a credit limit left on your card"
LOL
Yes... please report back on how it goes.
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