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Dakota Performance
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02dakR/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/26/2003
19:01:30
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 Subject: b&g flash
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i am new to the forum,and i about to splurge on the b&g m-1 flash.i have k&n fipk,52mm tb,m-1,180 tstat,msd 6a,accell brass cap and rotar,8mm taylor wires,and spintech side exaust.has anybody here got the flash.what kind of gains will i expect and what is the difference between the m-1 and the regular flash...all help will be appreciated.....by the way...what do u think i would run.never been to the track
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03grphrt
Dodge Dakota
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5/26/2003
20:44:04
| RE: b&g flash
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i have the flash on my 03 r/t, the m1 flash, and it is more aggressive, bumps shifts to 5400, needs 93 octane, advances timing, removes torque management, and dave at bg says over 20 hp gains.it really is the best, but is 630 or 530 with group buy.there will be more optioins but no one knows when so just give it some time and if u want just buy it.i like it alot.but u have a 52 tb thats what i need. ull prolly run high 14s with those.i ran a crappy 15.4 but with bad spin.ur launch is key.good luck , and headers should be next for you, 01 and up headers are the best mod.
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Lello
Dodge Dakota
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5/26/2003
22:51:27
|  RE: b&g flash
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Get the M1 flash only, not the regular. I did notice a difference in overall throttle response, little more bottom end, strong midrange and mine shifts around 5300-5400 as supposed too. Still running the stock TB but getting the 52 F& B soon. I believe this stock TB is holding the overall package back. I currently have the FIPK K&N, Gibson SS headers, Gibson catback, 3923 plugs, 180 stat, and the B&G M1 flash. 52 TB and 1.7 RR coming soon. I free'd up the exhaust side but an engine is basically an air pump so now I need to get more in their. working on it!!
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Dakaty
GenIII
5/27/2003
13:01:02
| RE: b&g flash
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I got the M1 flash. If I had it to do over again, I would request the shift points to be set at 5200 RPM rather than 5400.
I believe that would be more in the max power band at the shift. At least thats how it feels and sounds on mine.
Anyone else have opinions on the M1 5400 RPM shift point?
14.63 @ 91.8
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Frank
Dodge Dakota
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5/27/2003
13:48:50
| RE: b&g flash
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man, you guys got me all excited where can I get the b&g m1 flash and how much money?
thanks
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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5/27/2003
15:30:53
| RE: b&g flash
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yea i here u dakaty, at 5400 it kinda feels liek its going outa breath, but i think that cuz i dont have headers, or 52mm tb, once those are done i think it will be optimum.
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Lello
Dodge Dakota
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5/27/2003
16:24:13
| RE: b&g flash
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Yes, I here a good 50mm or 52 tb will make the difference in rev. potential.
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graphiteRT
R/T
5/27/2003
17:22:59
| RE: b&g flash
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It's the stock cam profile that is running out of breath at that rpm. You're not doing yourselves any good reving that high unless you've got an entirely reworked top end to support it.
It's a shame we haven't got our act together on the tuning software yet, because I hate seeing people getting soaked for $600 for a flash. That's nuts and feel free to quote me on that with B&G.
Maybe you guys should consider the new Superchips MicroTuner that just came out. Pretty impressive pick up in performance for less money. Don't get the shift points changed, but I don't think that's as big a deal if you haven't changed the cam.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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QwikZJ
Dodge Dakota
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5/27/2003
19:00:04
| RE: b&g flash
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How High can they raise the shift points
I would like 5800 if possible I have Cam 2.02 heads M1, 1.6RR's,52mm TB, and a Mopar Computer
Right now My jeep is really weak until 4000rpm unless I spray the 100 shot
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Lello
Dodge Dakota
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5/28/2003
08:30:24
|  RE: b&g flash
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Soaked???? don't think so, that's your opinion. I'm very happy with mine and so are many from this board and other boards. Soaked are people who bought Jet and Hypertech which were on ebay shortly after purchase. One hyperjunk was there two weeks after the product release. What bugs me are the people selling the Jet junk on ebay to another Dakota owner and claiming how good it is. Nice sellers you guys are, soaking another Dakota owner!! I'm sure we'll see the new Supertuner one on there soon too. Don't see many flashed pcms' or Mopar pcms' on ebay now do we. If Dave did yours and you weren't happy, maybe call him or send it back??
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graphiteRT
R/T
5/28/2003
11:14:27
| RE: b&g flash
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I used the word soaked trying to be nice. Yes, I have one of Dave's flashes. There is nothing wrong with it other than the price. The only reason Dave has been charging that price is because until now he has been the only one able to flash '01 and up PCMs. That is about to change and then what is he going to do about pricing? Drop it? The point being Leach Co. was charging $400 for a NA flash. Nothing about Dave's makes it worth $200 more.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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TJ
Dodge Dakota
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5/28/2003
14:50:16
| RE: b&g flash
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graphiteRT
You said The only reason Dave has been charging that price is because until now he has been the only one able to flash '01 and up PCMs. Who else is doing it now? Maybe I read it wrong but if not I would really like to know because I can't see throwing 600 at a flash either.
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graphiteRT
R/T
5/28/2003
15:49:19
| RE: b&g flash
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Both Mike Leach Co and myself should have that capability shortly. Expected to be up and running by now, but that's the nature of R&D. Soon though.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Lello
Dodge Dakota
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5/28/2003
15:53:37
|  RE: b&g flash
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Graphic R/t - that's great news, good others can start doing it, price will go down.
I'm curious, assuming you have the M1 flash, any pinging issues with the blower, you have a timing retard? Blower is in my future as warranty expiring date nears the end.
thanks,.....and sorry if my message came across strong too.
Later
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graphiteRT
R/T
5/28/2003
16:14:03
| RE: b&g flash
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The M1 flash has way too much timing for the blower and I pull a bunch out using a J&S Safeguard box. It was poor planning on my part getting the flash when I did.
That is all corrected with the new flash which supports a 2 bar MAP sensor and complete custom timing and fuel maps.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Lello
Dodge Dakota
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5/28/2003
16:43:40
| RE: b&g flash
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Keep us posted and thanks!!
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R/Truck
Dodge Dakota
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5/29/2003
14:25:04
| RE: b&g flash
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Well the shift points high are fine with me, mine shifts 5400-5600 most of the time. It would be nice if we could have more control over them though, like a programer. The peak HP on my 5.9L is from 3000 - 4500 rpm roughly, so if you can stay within that band your doing fine. However the HP numbers don't drop dramatically after 4500 they slowly go down until your reach redline. But when mine shifts early it "feels" slower, but anything over 5200rpms is really not going to make you anymore faster with stock heads and cam.
Jim Marshall - Houston
13.84 @ 97.68 MPH
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Buddy
Dodge Dakota
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5/29/2003
21:39:34
| RE: b&g flash
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I've asked before, but here it goes once more. What can a stock R/T w/a centrifugal blower and a set of 28" tall slicks do? 0-60 or 1/4.
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Dakfour
Gen III
5/29/2003
21:55:12
| RE: b&g flash
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Sorry my ignorance, but... What is this "flash"??Can anyone help me??? By the way, I would like to buy the "DODGE" from 2002 Ram by internet...I´m outside the US and the dodge´s dealer around here doesn´t have it....I woud appreciate some help ...
Dak 1999 2.5l 4X2 jet perfoirmance stage 1
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02dakR/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/30/2003
06:06:00
| RE: b&g flash
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thankx for all the responces guys,the b&g flash is the only option i have.i realize that 600 bucks is way to much for the flash,but i have no other choice,i cant get the superchips programer because i have the m-1,or can i.bob did i see that u posted somthing like,"the m-1 wont work with the superchips programer".i just need somthing to upgrade my computer...lol
2002 blk cc R/T.....k&n fipk,f&b 52 mm tb,m-1 intake,msd6a with acell brass cap and rotar,taylor 8mm wires,spintech side exit catback
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graphiteRT
R/T
5/31/2003
02:14:19
| RE: b&g flash
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Nooo, not true that you can't use the Superchips programmer with the M1. It's just not optimized for the M1 so you *MAY* get an off idle stumble with it, but other than that I would have no worries.
Somewhere I read where the Superchips deal has some 30 money back guarantee(it may be a particular vendor offering this). Poke around to see if you can locate the offer, then your risk of buying and trying is substantially reduced.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Joey
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2003
02:41:52
| RE: b&g flash
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wat about the kenne bell optimizer 2? i heard this gives 16 rearwheel horsepower.. anyone try it?
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Dakdoc
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2003
09:22:57
| RE: b&g flash
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Not to blow Daves whistle, but he charges $530 and it does remove torque management which he charges $200 to do by itself. Tom's supercharged flash is and always has been $650, naturally aspirated runs $450 after shipping. So Dave is only $135 over Toms Flash and Tom has not been able to remove torque management. Plus you can run the $530 M-1 Flash and request less timing for a blower app upstairs. Very fair price for the research, dyno time and labor. I went from 13.14 @ 105 to 12.77 @108 all motor over the Mopar PCM, which is my favorite base program. As for the torque management issue, it all stared here at KRC with Eddie Gomilias truck and the Viper converter. 15.0 before, installed a 2800 flash Viper converter, 15.0 after with a .5 second bog. I personally spent 2 days at Superchips with Steve Madole, head engineer on the dyno, and nothing could be done. I then used a gearbox signal modifier on the rear output shaft sensor and the problem moved around to different rpms. Call Dave and Kenny at B&G and told them were to look in the ladder around the OSS and they would find it, one week later they call me back and found it. They removed it and Eddies first pass with instant accell/ no bog was 14.60 then 14.5. He got his half a second with the Viper converter. Running a smaller faster spinning converter emulates a spinning tire and that code will pull timing up to 3000 rpm, not much for a hole shot. Well worth the money to answer your question.
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Scott
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2003
09:30:38
| RE: b&g flash
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Is there any reason that you need to buy a new Mopar PCM rather than having an equivelent flash? Is the hardware any different that you need to replace your perfectly good one? Can the dealer just fash your PCM up to an M1?
Scott
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graphiteRT
R/T
5/31/2003
12:50:44
| RE: b&g flash
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Not to blow Dave's whistle???? Marty, you deserve a price break for the advertisement alone! LOL You must be quoting your price, because Dave has always been $630 for onesy, twosy flashes. Only with a buy of 5 or more does he come off the price.
Supercharged flash? Neither of those guys have a true S/C flash and you know that. When it's all said and done the PCM still "no comprende" on the positive pressure. What we are working with is new logic in combination with a 2 bar MAP and new tables for the positive pressure. That's a real supercharged flash.
The price justification for dyno and R&D time would be acceptable, but AFAIK Dave didn't do the work, he's getting the knowhow and the tools from inside DC. Do you know differently?
The comparisons to Superchips are apples to oranges. The Superchips tools only have a subset of features turned on and tranny stuff isn't available to them. Dave's contacts are different.
I stick to what I have said many times, the current price structure is because these guys are the only game in town, but there is a big-ass bullseye on that deal and there are some very influential people who would like to see it changed for the better on the customer side. It's gonna happen reeeeeal soon and then what's gonna happen to the pricing scheme?????? Stay tuned.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Buddy
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2003
13:06:45
| RE: b&g flash
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02DakRT, you should run about a 14.1 with your current mods, and high 13s with the flash.
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02dakR/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2003
17:59:59
| RE: b&g flash
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thankx buddy,u really think i would go that fast,see ive never been to the track,but i know my truck pulls hard,hopefully when i get my pcm back,i will really notice the difference.on the delphi forum,some guy said he had just got the superchips program,and he wasnt that impressed
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SinCity R/T
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2003
18:13:14
| RE: b&g flash
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Bob: On a number of occasions you've mentioned that you hope Dave's flash will (or should) come down in price when the competition finally gets their flashes to market (what is it, 6, 7, 8 months now in R&D? That isn't "soon"). This makes me believe that the new N/A flashes aren't going to be as good as Dave's - only that you hope the apparent competition will drive his price down far enough to make it comparable to the others which aren't as effective.
Aside from the obvious references to the 2 bar map for supercharged owners, is there going to be any difference between these new flashes and the B&G? Will the new flashes offer everything that the B&G will? Do they have fewer features like the Hypertech/Superchips, or will it have even more than the B&G? What exactly are these things supposed to do for owners that will make it worth the huge wait, besides supposedly be a bit cheaper?
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Buddy
Dodge Dakota
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6/01/2003
22:16:16
| RE: b&g flash
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Those times will be with good conditions and decent traction. Oh,and yes, I do believe it can go that fast. If it's a club cab, expect it to be about .2 seconds slower.
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Dakdoc
Dodge Dakota
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6/01/2003
23:09:32
| RE: b&g flash
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Interesting, I don't see B&G advertised anywhere by myself, only mentioned what I do on trucks that come in, second, the supercharged trucks from KRC do wonderful, no problems here, only traction issues. They run stock, Mopar PCMs, modified PCMs from Leech or B&G, and seem to run quicker than 108 through the traps, for example. I still use a Mopar PCM with 24lbs on motor alone and post 111mph in a Club Cab, and still get 16mpg around cruising. Must be doing something right, eh? As for pricing, send the PCM to KRC Performance and they will flash it for $530 easily. Nowhere near $650. If you run 14.0 and go to a 13.5, would you grumble about $500? Not me, I spend $1000's to get tenths below the 11sec bracket now. Not blowing Dave's whistle or advertising, but, I recommend B&G's work for any street combo as the original poster has. Especially since they have frequent updates from a little dyno in Florida to dial in their flashes.
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graphiteRT
R/T
6/02/2003
01:33:37
| RE: b&g flash
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Steve, I'm only assuming that Dave's prices will come down, I don't know that for a fact. Matters not to me either way, quite frankly, other than I hate to see people paying more for the same thing.
On the R&D comment, it's not an issue with the flashes themselves, mine has been done since Nov. and the others have been "in the can" even longer. Delays have been related to the GUI, added security so we don't have people stealing copies of either the software or the flashes that we develop and the code writers having to attend to the needs of paying customers. Since the S/C stuff is proprietary to this program, not so much worried about someone stealing that unless they are willing to risk the legal consequences, but for the NA stuff I'm sure some folks would be thinking they'll just sponge off of our efforts by locating a controller we've done and downloading our stuff. No worries on that now. There is no one that has waited longer or more patiently than myself(approaching 1 year now), but if you think that is a long time for R&D, then the 18-30 month lead times associated with the stuff I do in my day job would probably really scare you ;-)
B&G has an M1 or a non-M1 program. That's it. Right out of the box we'll have that sort of offering and probably 5-6 other flashes based on various cam/head profiles, so for the crowd that has gone to heavier mods, we can probably provide a better fit than the M1 flash right away. As time passes, we'll build on that library, first by working up a NA flash for my cam/head setup which is a cam choice that is fairly popular with some of Dan Arcand's customers. So initially we'll have more to offer and the gap will only widen with passing time. The current players will have to raise their game or get left behind. Constant dyno and track development of new flashes will not be just a desire, but a necessity if they want to stay competitive.
As I said before on Delphi, this is no magic bullet that somehow makes 50 more HP than other flash offerings. That's not the way it works. The Magnum in stock config has a fairly narrow tuning window of opportunity and even the best efforts of tuners will net results that are all within ~5 HP/TQ of one another. B&G is one of the early ones to make available a flash that has the off idle enrichment tables tweaked for the M1. I would almost bet money that somewhere in that library of flashes coming to me that there is something that is very close to, if not exactly matching, the flash that Dave is or was offering 14 months ago when I purchased my B&G M1 flash.
Marty, you know yourself you can't mail it in on the program tweaks. You have no datastream or log files that you can mail Dave for VE and cell mapping analysis. And any feedback you provide on one of your cusomter's 408/KRC 220 cammed supercharged setups doesn't apply to either the M1 or non-M1 flashes. As soon as you change the setup, the only person that "feedback" can help is somebody with exactly the same setup. There is no substitute for on-site and in person tuning on the dyno. You're taking a step backwards to the exact scenario that people want to avoid of multiple cross country mailings of their PCMs in attempt to fine tune for their setup. In those cases your better to sell them a FAST and let them tweak to their heart's content.
Part of the reason I talk so much about this stuff is to get people better educated on what it is all about and hopefully make them better educated consumers on what it is they are buying. There's entirely too much "smoke and mirrors" BS type stuff in this biz. It doesn't matter who you spend your hard earned money with in the end as long as you're happy with what you've bought and done based on facts, not marketing fluff.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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