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MikeD
*R/T*
6/02/2003
12:26:26
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 Subject: RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Well the flash must've went down in price when I ordered mine at $530 but after having the Kenne Bell flash I'd say it was well worth it.
One thing I do wish though is that Dave made a fuel map for 24# injectors...now they just lay in my room and its a wasted $350.
If someone can create a program that they can individually tune a specific box for the mods someone currently has that'll be the best computer program you can buy next to the laptop tuneable ones.
~Mike~
Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
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Dakdoc
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/02/2003
12:44:39
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
"""You have no datastream or log files that you can mail Dave for VE and cell mapping analysis."""
You keep on assuming Bob.....
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graphiteRT
R/T
6/02/2003
12:47:46
| RE: b&g flash
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Mike, there are utilities available to use to remap for larger injectors. Dave can do it on the open loop stuff. He did it on mine. But for some reason they didn't rework the entire program because my long term fuel trims are horrible.
The only way you can get a tune that is truly tuned for a specific mod set is if that mod set was dyno tuned at some point. You can get within ~5% otherwise.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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MikeD
*R/T*
6/02/2003
14:24:07
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
What do you mean by long-term fuel trims?
And did it cost you extra to get your flash remapped? How much was it? And did you get it dyno tested after the rework?
~Mike~
Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
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graphiteRT
R/T
6/02/2003
18:01:28
| RE: b&g flash
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Marty, how very James Bond, but I don't think my assumptions are that far off.
Hey, how come you haven't flown Dave down for a couple of days' crash course? I assume you could easily line up some customer trucks or shop trucks and with a few hours of dyno time, bingo, starter flash library. Stop working your FedEx guy so hard at the same time with all that back and forth shipping.
You represent the working and development relationship with Dave as being great and cutting edge, so you guys shouldn't have anything to worry about. But it begs the question, why so much looking over your shoulder?
Mike, the long term fuel trims are one indicator of how close your fuel maps are to the engine needs and the numbers generally range from -30 to +30 indicating how much the computer is lengthenging or shortening the injector duty cycles relative to your pre-mapped tables. Ideally you want to tune so this number stays as close to zero as possible. The number can be read through the dataport under the steering wheel with a scanner or OBD-II software.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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MikeD
*R/T*
6/02/2003
22:55:56
| RE: b&g flash
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I recall from a guy w/ a 408 Stroker Durango that had a piggy-back system installed called the Perfect Power SMT-6 module saying that when the guy installed it he noticed the stock injectors stayed at 100% duty alot of the times and said if you could control that it would be better.
And about the SMT-6...I dunno if you've heard much about it but I've read that it helps out alot. The fuel maps and timing can be programmed into the chip and intercept the signals from the PCM. Supposedly it works but its as much as a flash so I dunno if thats even worth the time and money. Closest installer to me is a 14 hour drive so it would have to be damn good.
~Mike~
Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
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Dakdoc
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/02/2003
23:47:36
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
But it begs the question, why so much looking over your shoulder?
Because you of all people, fascinate the snot out of me, leading people to believe you are doing the work when you are only a small test truck part of Frank's work. That is Pride isn't it? I enjoy seeing you like a buzzard waiting for some PCM question to post, so you can impress someone you can't even see with your ideas. Do yourself a favor, stop bragging about how good everything will be until the work is done and the bugs are worked out and 1000 trucks are running well with it. You will cut your own throat by promising before delivering. Deliver a great product first and then brag about it. Stop bragging like it is your work alone. You remind me of another person that used to frequent here answering everything posted. Hey look! I think I see another PCM question over on the Delphi Bob, go get it....
Second, I posted to answer the first guy's question, which I did as accurate as possible, not argue with some know it all out to prove himself. I'm done speaking to you from now on Bob, good luck in all you do...
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graphiteRT
R/T
6/03/2003
16:07:16
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Marty, where dooooo you find the time???
For someone who is as busy as you claim, supposedly has customers lined up down the street, is the "Go To" guy for everyone from the Superchips Tech to the Engineers within the Powertrain Group at DC(at least in your head), how do you manage to find time to cruise message boards seeking out posts by a little no-name hobbyist in Calif?? I guess that's either flattering or creepy, depending on your perspective. I thought we were going to keep it civil, but obviously you've gone to attack mode......
You might wanna back up and replay the tape. I've made it clear to anyone paying attention that I was fortunate enough to get involved with this program through a friend and the software comes to me with a small library of flashes developed by several people. Feel free to cut and paste any posted comments that say otherwise. I fail to understand why you keep dropping Frank's name and I don't appreciate your suggestion that something sinsiter is going on. It's obvious from your statements you're armed with about 1/3 of the facts. You getting your info from Sam? Maybe not the best source since he's not even in the loop. Anything we do after we start working with the software will be with our own wrenching, dyno and track testing on our own nickel and I"m stoked over the fact that they added the copy protection features that they did after I raised a flag. That keeps everyone doing their OWN homework. That's a good thing in my mind. Nobody gets to steal -your- stuff, Marty. How is that threatening to you?
As near as I can figure, you're either feeling threatened by a better tuning approach or you're just pissed that you are on the outside looking in or maybe you're just worried that some of the stuff you have thrown out there as gospel about PCMs is gonna get put to the acid test. That doesn't support your suggestion of being a go to Guru on the Mopar stuff, I guess....Dunno....Don't care. But you're pissing into the wind with the belief that you still hold all the cards with MAP tweaking boxes, FAST systems or mail order flashes from Dave that you advise him on.
And lemme see if I've got this straight, you saying Tom's flashes or Dave's flashes is an accurate statement, right? There's the pot calling the kettle black. What do you estimate was Dave's dyno bill to come up with that M1 flash? But you're just answering the guy with the facts, right? ROFL...
I get into a fair amount of detail on some of these questions, without compromising proprietary information both because it's interesting to me and to EDUCATE the people on how some of this behind the scenes stuff on the PCMs works. Hardly makes me a know-it-all Marty. There are no individual names or company names mentioned by me for the specific reason that those people have said it's OK to talk up the software, but they don't want their names out there. However, it appears we have a little info leak.
I can recognize and admit when I'm over my head and I'm not afraid to lean on the people who have the answers. No need to reinvent the wheel. That may not be consistent with the mushroom theory approach you seem to practice at KRC which keeps the customers relying on you, but then I'm not out to keep up some over-inflated image of my tuning prowess either.
The F Body and Mustang guys are about 3 levels above us in terms of tuning knowhow and knowledge base. Instead of leaving the status quo which supports the idea of continuing this BS approach of dicking around with MAP signals, one of the goals of this project that was discussed early on is to raise the bar and encourage some cleaner tuning efforts. You can attempt to discredit the whole deal by attacking me, but in the end you're gonna have to either raise your game or get left behind. If I weren't involved with the program, I'd still be jacked over the prospect that the code is out there and some real gearheads who give a sh*t about something other than making a quick buck are going to allow some of us to tune correctly and in ways not seen before. It might pinch your MAP box sales slightly, but that's hardly reason to attack the effort.
PS - The next time someone innocently asks you for something as simple as the pinout for the IAC hookup to a FAST system, don't bullsh*t them with the "it's proprietary information". It's one of two possibilities and all you would have done is saved someone from burning up a stepper motor. Rather than blowing off the person you think, you blew off a Dick Landy project and I hear Dick has a pretty good memory. Sometimes you gotta be careful who's shoes you're pissing on.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Dakdoc
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/03/2003
19:23:41
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
I am sorry, were you talking to me?
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chesster51
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/03/2003
19:31:26
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Hey Bob, will the system you're working on be available for the 4.7. I am currently looking very hard at the SMT-6, the price is the only thing that has held me back for now. Thanks for the response. Hey Marty, CHILL
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graphiteRT
R/T
6/03/2003
19:39:54
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Yup on the 4.7
There's a really sharp tuner(not me) who's been working the 4.7 stuff for a couple of weeks now. The knowledge base is very thin to start with, but some interesting things were learned right out of the gate.
Don't know much about that SMT-6 deal, quite honestly, but someone would be crazy to go with an Apexi box over that. You're screwing with a MAP signal in a way which impacts both the fuel and spark tables on the WOT stuff. I've seen just a bit of the SMT-6 interface and it looks interesting. Hoping someone will try it out on a later model truck and get some long term reports. That fresh off the install and dyno tune stuff is only baseline. Without follow up you can't show it's truly effective.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Frank
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/04/2003
07:10:32
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Maybe this is the wrong time but, what PCM or flash should I get for my 99 R/T, if Im putting a supercharger on later on down the road??
I hear the mopar performance PCM wont work with a SC.
Any resonse is appreciated.
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SinCity R/T
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/04/2003
10:10:33
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Almost any pre-canned aftermarket flash is going to have too much timing for use with a supercharger "As-Is". The other benefits of having the Mopar PCM (or aftermarket flash) is what makes it worth having, you'll just need to retard some of that timing (using an ignition retard or a tuning device) when under boost.
- Steve
http://www.dakota-durango.com
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mr. geevs
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/04/2003
17:06:53
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
i would like to step in and ask a question if i could. im sure someone has asked this question in some form or another. i have an 01r/t i have all typical mods m1, 52mm tb., pulleys, headers, full exh change, t-stat, msd, you get point. as of yet no internal mods and no future plans for boost or spray. currently have a hypertech programmer which im not that happy with. this fall im changing cam, heads and inj.. nothing real radical everything should compliment each other nicely.(one of the few people with a game plan). ive read posts on flashes, this is an area im not to familiar with, but am learning. read some posts some saying that you need a specific flash and some flashes will only work with certain mods. some people saying that once they got a flash they have had problems. is there questions i should ask when talking with the company that is going to do my flash? is there something i should look for in particular when choosing a flash or company? any advice would be helpful. i understand maybe my questions are kinda vague but im sure someone out there can decypher them.
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jay jay
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/05/2003
10:57:24
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
yeah this mr.geevs has a valid post. no one has answered it yet, you guys argue like 2 old ladies and take up posts with b.s.. id like to know the answeer to his questions cause ill be getting some of the same mods next year too
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graphiteRT
R/T
6/05/2003
11:43:29
| RE: b&g flash
IP: Logged
Message:
Well jay jay, the question has been up for less than 24 hrs and some of us have other things going on in life besides reading message boards. Sorry we can't always cater to your timetables.
As for Mr. geevs question, there isn't enough info about the cam and head combo to answer intelligently. And there is nothing in the mod set to justify an injector change. The stockers will work with a flash. Save that money for something else.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Dakdoc
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/05/2003
19:13:37
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Besides, what if Bob and I like to banter, don't read it, ignore us.
My suggestion is to see what others run successfully and make your decision from there Mr. Geevs. (isn't that Lara Croft's butler?)
I would suggest the M-1 Flash as this post started with, that's what I use for 75% of the projects at KRC. It's the best available at the moment and track /street proven by more than KRC customers.
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93Dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/05/2003
21:11:56
| RE: b&g flash
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How is the M1 flash different than a '93 V8 MP PCM (besides obviously being better suited for M1 equipped vehicles)?
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Dakdoc
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/06/2003
07:09:46
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
Your 93 is a great program, I would suggest adding 6 degrees total to it for performance applications of heads and cams. Send it to KRC and we can add timing to it for $60. I usually run 6-8 degrees for the street and bump it to 10-12 for the track. I then back it off if the MPH drops off. The OBD1 programs do not use the same tranny parameters as the M-1 OBD2 flash either. The 517 ram 360 controller is the most common 93 PCM we use here.
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93Dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
6/07/2003
16:59:49
| RE: b&g flash
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Message:
This may be a very basic question but I sure don't know...How is adding timing to the PCM different than advancing the cam?
Thanks
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j
GenIII
6/07/2003
19:40:27
| RE: b&g flash
IP: Logged
Message:
Ignition timing and cam timing are not the same thing. The pcm does not control the cam timing.
2000 4.7 CC auto, clear corners, Magnaflow catback, Kenne Bell s/c, Aquamist water injection.
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