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02:59:13 - 12/29/2024
Dakota Performance
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Rod
Dodge Dakota
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4/20/2003
23:26:54
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 Subject: Turbo 5.2
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I am getting a student loan and spending it on a turbo
kit, intake manifold, cam, and TB. Anyways... Does
anyone know a company or companies that can do
this? SpeedTweaks is gone, and I didn't like their
$5500 price anyways. I'm guessing that I can spend
about 2 grand for the parts (turbo, intercooler,
wastegate, misc. pipes, Blow off valve, and Electronic
boost control) Where can I get a turbo manifold for my
dak. I live in Orlando FL. So if there's anyplace within a
few hours, I'm there. Thanks for the help.
PS- I'd have a 360 but if you can't get a stick, I'm not
getting it.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/21/2003
03:34:30
|  RE: Turbo 5.2
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why spend all of the R&D into a turbo kit when it can only make 10lbs of boost (or less) before the headgaskets go south?
just buy a used supercharger. its a lot cheaper, your truck will be down for a LOT less time, and you dont have to worry about how you are going to add fuel to it.
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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Rod
Dodge Dakota
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4/21/2003
12:46:17
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Please explain to me why I would have to R&D the
turbo kit. If there is a company, like speedtweaks, that
has done a dakota turbo or something similar then I
wouldnt have to spend a dime on R&D. Also, a turbo is
more efficient than a supercharger, plus I like the idea
of adjustable boost with the touch of a button. Thanks
for the input though
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waterpolo
GenIII
4/21/2003
13:30:56
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Rod -- the only turbo kits i've heard of on daks have been custom kits. As far as the super charger kits there are tons of them avaliable for your engine. Eric (Kota on 20's) is right, just get a used super charger kit and you'll be ready to rock. Also if you get into any problems with setting the kit up there are more guys to ask for help.
In my opinion if i had the money for a kit, I would go with a super charger.
If you find anyone who makes kits for the dak let everyone know.
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dropt98dakota
Dodge Dakota
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4/21/2003
15:23:34
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Basically if you want a turbo kit you have to build the whole thing yourself. I don't know about down there but up here in canada that $2000 would just cover the turbo and the intercooler. Turbo manifolds would have to be made from scratch and like eric said it would take a long time to build up, look at duner it took him over a month to build. Where as a supercharger such as procharger's available kit can be installed in 4 hours, if you want instant adjust-a-boost on a supercharged motor what you can do is put the smallest pulley on and attatch a wastegate, like you would have to put on a turbo motor, on the cmpessor side of the super, when the boost pressure reases desired amount the wastegate will open and releive the excess pressure.
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Mr.H
Dodge Dakota
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4/21/2003
20:34:49
|  RE: Turbo 5.2
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Dropt98dakota!!!! You seem knowledgeable, so tell me: How linear is the boost with a super vs. turbo charger, in other words will a supercharger drop off at any certain RPM where it'll become inefficient, like 6 or 7000 rpm's?
I wouldn't see the need of revving over 7 grand unless your build-up produces peak power higher than that. BUT, if you want to pull the MAX power potential, you'll have to rev it higher than a supercharger is willing to spin efficiently.
I would think that keeping the low-rpm (1 - 3k) range fairly close to stock output, and tuning the motor to come in around 3,500 would allow you to retain a lot of your gas mileage, and then applying boost from a nice sized turbo that'll come in about 2k when the boost is turned up, and then see your peaks at about 7k - 7.5k rpm's.
The 4.7 seems like a great engine to do that with, and since it's hi-revving, you could take even more advantage of a nice 100 shot on top of that to run a low-mid 11 sec.
I've played with the fig's on Dyno 2000, and this motor seems to respond VERY WELL to head porting and Turbocharging, and the reason I posted the info. was to point out that with a set of ported heads and the 206 or 218 cams, intake, exhaust, some good pistons, rods, forged HO crank, and the right fuel injectors/computer setup, you can twist 350 hp , 380 tq from the 4.7. With the right Turbo on top of that, and a good intercooler with a 100 shot of nitrous, you're looking at 680-700 hp/400-450 tq!!! And that all peaks around 7500 and doesn't drop off til' 8500, and I would like to think a lot of people that are posting in the performance section have similar goals of beating Lightning's with no trouble. So, that setup will bring 500 reliable pump-gas hp, and you'll have a Dakota GTS!!! All at about hopefully 15-16 mpg.
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Rod
Dodge Dakota
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4/21/2003
22:44:07
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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I have a 318. I know that a supercharger is cheaper, but
a new SC is about 3500 bucks. A used T3 and used
intercooler would be like 500 bucks. How much would
a set of manifolds be? a grand at most. Piping, wires,
wastegate, and the other needed items would be like
500 more bucks. That adds up to about 2 grand. Before
anyone says that 500 bucks for a turbo and intercooler
is way too low, look at the number of cars with t3 turbos
from the factory. There are many cars. I like SC's a lot
and have no problem with them, it's just that with a
turbo the possiblity for breakdown is minimal vs. a
supercharger. Also, the boost from a Turbo is great, and
with a SC I would have mad traction problems.
Anyways, thanks for the input, all is appreciated. Keep
the comments coming.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/21/2003
23:50:06
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Mr H, it makes no sence in spining a 4.7L to 7000-7500 rpm. it probably stopps making power at 5500, so why keep pulling? the cams you would have to use, and the amount of head porting that would have to take place would totaly kill your bottomend. IMO
also before you start putting spray on top of boost, i would change the pistons. the top rings in the 4.7's are pretty close to the top of the pistons you will break a ringland the fist time you hit the spray button.
Rod, i would research your turbo project a little deeper before you go buying parts. speedtweaks (which are OUT OF BUSINESS by the way) did build ONE RT with twin turbo's. and it ate headgaskets like the cookie monster eats cookies.
there are NO turbo kits on the market right now. if you want one, you will have to build your own kit.
$2,000 was a estimate on the turbo, intercooler (by the way, where is that going to go?), wires, piping, ect, but you left out ALL fuel upgrades! what are you going to do about that?
you said "the boost from a Turbo is great, and
with a SC I would have mad traction problems"
you dont think you will have traction problems with a turbo? T3 turbo + 5.2L V8 = instant boost.
a centrifical supercharger builds boost as RPM's increase, NOT all at once.
soooo....is $2,000 + whatever the fuel system upgrades are going to cost, + your time for the R&D that will need to be done going to be worth it?
FWIW i bought a used powerdyne off of this site for $1500 shipped to my door, took 2 hrs to install it, and i am VERRY pleased with it
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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TurboGuy
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2003
08:10:05
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Rod, I cant believe you're going to use a POS T3. Get real. At the minimum Id use is a new GT28 series.
You've obviously never fabbed up a complete turbo system.
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dropt98dakota
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2003
11:36:15
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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I would have to agree with eric.
Any t3 turbos that you find in factory equiped cars are 4 cylinder engines which flow no where near as much air as a 5.2, like eric said, with that turbo on our sized engines would be building full boost just off idle about 1500 and as your engine speed goes up so does the turbo shaft speed and at the speeds that it would be going caused by use on the 5.2 it will overspeed and grenade itself. Also with buying a turbo off the junkyard lot you don't know what kind of life that it was treated too, the seals and bearing could be worn or even shot which then it would need a rebuild, what if the impeller or turbine vanes are twisted of chipped, no good then either. The intercooler could have problems as well, could have a hole in it or dirt inside it, don't want that stuff inside your engine.
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Mr.H
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2003
12:39:06
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Keep in mind that the 4.7 has a slightly lacking
bottom end anyway, and if you think the bottom
end would weaken with boost??? Well,
anyway...Hmmmm
The 5.2 will be similar, but may need a little
help with the pushrods spinning hi- rpm's, but
it should make tq and hp quicker in the rpm's.
The ricers are the ones with bottom end
problems, and these guys can run as fast as 8's
in the 1/4!!! I know they're much lighter, but
the driveability doesnt' go down much for the
4.7 with the setup I described , and I did list
NEW Forged pistons, and the compression should
be dropped to 9:1 or 8.5:1, and the block should
be O-ringed to hold the boost required to make
500-750 hp, which is easily done with the right
fuel/computer system upgrades along with the
right-engine build/head porting/and 18 lbs. of
boost from a T4.
The curve is relatively the same from idle to
3000 rpm's, but from there on, things start
happening, and 700 hp comes around 6500 rpm's,
and about 600 tq at 6000, and that's with a 100
shot. Keep in mind I recommend the forged crank
from the HO 4.7 and aftermarket rods and pistons.
All this is done at around 18 psi, with some
pocket porting and the stock valve sizes. Better
use some good springs though.
With the right porting, the HP can go through
the roof to about 1100 hp, and 700 tq , hp
coming in around 8500 rpms, tq coming in @ 7000
rpm's and then dropping off from there, and
that's also with stock valve sizes, but with
canted/pro-stock heads.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/22/2003
13:35:09
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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thoes 8sec ricers have no interior, lexan windows, huge turbo, they idle at 2,000 rpm, and have complete fiberglass one pice frontend, glass doors, ect...
as far as your 4.7, we can sit here and bench race all day long and its not going to get us anywhere. just go build it, and let us see the dyno graph when its done.
BTW, what trans are you expecting to use?
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/22/2003
13:40:28
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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and do i think you will lose bottomend with boost?...no. i think you will loose it with the big cams and the amount of headwork that will be needed to make power in your 7500 rpm powerband. the bigger valves (that you will need), will kill the velocity of air going into the cylenders, resulting in a loss of torque down in the lower RPM's
thats why you dont see guys putting 2.08 race heads on 318's
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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daveczrn
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2003
14:04:02
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Mr. H it sounds like you have been spending too much time infront of the computer with dyno 2000....... i'm not trying to be mean but what you are talking about is not realistic.
"With the right porting, the HP can go through
the roof to about 1100 hp, and 700 tq , hp
coming in around 8500 rpms, tq coming in @ 7000
rpm's and then dropping off from there, and
that's also with stock valve sizes, but with
canted/pro-stock heads."
and after every run you strip the engine down and rebuild it like the top fuel guys do. at 7400rpm there is 144% more wear and tear done on an engine than at 6000rpm. do you want your engine going through that???? i don't. pro stock heads cost somewhere around $4000/pair before porting and "the right porting" isn't something you will be able to do without hundreds of hours of experience porting or about another $4000 to pay a head flo expert.
"NEW Forged pistons, and the compression should
be dropped to 9:1 or 8.5:1, and the block should
be O-ringed to hold the boost required to make
500-750 hp, which is easily done with the right
fuel/computer system upgrades along with the
right-engine build/head porting/and 18 lbs. of
boost from a T4."
new pistons >$600
new crank $800
new rods $550
new heads $1300
head porting $1000
new transmission $2500
new rear $3000
+ block machining, intake, exaust work, electronics, and other things that will easily cost $6000
running 18lbs boost is cool and all but you would have to run atleast 104 octane. airplain fuel is only 100 so that leaves you with leaded cam 2 at 114octane that there isnt an O2 sensor that can handel leaded gas. so there goes your tuning capibilities from your computer. can you get it right??? yea by either paying a expert about $2000 or by spending about 100 hours tuning it and replacing sensors
i have priced out what it would take do build a small block chevy 350 twin turbo and building the rest of the car to handel it and it ain't cheap.....somewhere along the tone of $18000, and it would still get 18mpg driving.
my brother just spent $1000 to get 12hp on his big block chevy. you want to get 400more hp than you are starting with and sound like you can do it for under $3000. i would love to see anyone be able to do that without nitrous.
18lbs boost and 100shot of n2o would create too much cylinder preasure for any stock block to handle
speed cost money....how fast do you want to go.
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Mr.H
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2003
16:35:07
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Well, I sure wouldn't use a stock tranny, and I
know you run into bugs and things in your tuning
and you're all definitely good sources of
information, BUT, if a 3.0 Liter Skyline can
make 1100 ALL-WHP, then my 4.7 can make at least
that, though, it will require a massive amt. of
tuning`, AND , I never said I wanted to build
the motor to anything past 500 hp with boost!
For the sole reason of money!!
But I would definitely o-ring the block AND run
FORGED EVERYTHING!!! AND at that rate spinning
the 4.7 past 6500 or 7000 WOULD be worthless,
BUT the right set of bearings for the bottom end
and the right valve springs would EASILY handle
those rpm's!!!
And whose to say I'd run it like that all the
time!! I just want to run low 12's, and maybe hi
11's ONE DAY, but not very soon, and I will do
it, as will many others!
I'll take a motor from a totalled Overland and
build on that, but til then I'm all motor for at
least a year!
I just know these specs are realistic with the
right stuff and a LOT of money.
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daveczrn
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2003
17:36:13
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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if you want to run hi 11's put a set of pistons in it and do a complete exaust and intake
then put a 175 shot of jiuce on it. that should do it. should bring you close to 475 crank hp
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n2o sucks
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2003
18:07:38
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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too much fast and furious fantasy here, do you think that turbos and nitrous are the only upgrades you can make. i thought people driving around 318 and 360 chryslers would no better. turbos are for displacement replacement. let me remind you, you have 8 cylinders as opposed to 4 like the ricers. nitrous sucks, you can only use it on the strip, you can't use it to get to work quick, and i hope you don't want to use everytime you come head to head with some punkass at the stoplight. go oldschool, use more fuel and more compression. build a REAL motor first and then if you want more strap on a blower or if you want to take it to the strip a few times hook up some juice. but those should be your last mods, not your first. you act like a bunch of punk ass ricers who just happen to have a v8.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/23/2003
01:01:12
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Mr n2o...tell that to ron merx. 387CID+ boost + n2o = 10.7@131 in a all stock body club cab truck
why not run a high compressoion engine?... i personally dont like to pay $5 a gallon for 100 oct fuel every time i get gas. buying $20 worth of it every time i go to the track is cool, thats where the fun stopps.
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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Mr.H
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/23/2003
09:58:15
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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That is my plan exactly!
WHY THE HECK WOULD ANY DUMBA$$ TURBOCHARGE WITH 18 PSI AND NOT BUILD THE MOTOR UP FIRST.
Sounds like you're jumping to conclusions, I KNOW I HAVE A V8, AND I KNOW IT'LL TURN 340 HP ALL MOTOR WITHOUT DROPPING MPG ANY LOWER THAN 16!!
I don't want to run HUGE cams and oversized valves for that reason (MPG).
This will be a daily driver at least for a while, and I'd like to be able to turn the boost down and get good MPG's.
So you go ahead and run your BIG cams and your 11.5:1 pistons and get 13 mpg and only gain about 40 hp over my 9.5:1 and MILD cam, and then I'll turn the boost up and hit my shot and we'll race.
Nitrous is used in turbo applications to successfully cool the intake air and make for a combined effect , optimizing the charger's operating conditions, and the benefits of nitrous.
AND no I don't have that stuff yet, but it's the point that counts.
If a turbo is a REPLACEMENT for CI, then WHY DO THEY USE THEM ON 14.2 l DETROIT'S??????????????
It's only a very nice addition to our motor-head list of Techno-wizardry performance enhancers that, if built right, could outlast a factory engine and outrun a VETTE! Then the shot'll just hopefully knock off another second in the 1/4!
That's all I have to say about that.......
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Tom Slick
GenII
4/23/2003
21:24:44
| RE: Turbo 5.2
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Message:
Hey Rod...
There happens to be one set of turbo headers still left from the SpeedTweaks setup... e-mail me if you are interested in them...
I can tell you pretty much everything you'll need... I did a lerge percentage of the design work on the setup...
Later!
Tom Slick
turbokits@speedtweaks.net
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