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Jim
Dodge Dakota
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1/28/2003
16:04:41
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 Subject: Death Flash
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What do you guys mean when you say buy the Mopar PCM and have it "Death Flashed"????
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j
GenIII
1/28/2003
16:29:39
|  RE: Death Flash
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Death Flash--- done by the dealer to stop pinging. Retards timing. Stops the pinging (hopefully) but also takes away power.
2000 4.7 CC auto, clear corners, Magnaflow catback, Kenne Bell s/c.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/28/2003
16:33:26
| RE: Death Flash
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That was the cheap and easy way for Dodge to solve there predetonation problems.
Reduces the timing advance, thus taking power away. Makes the spark plug fire sooner, before compression is peaked for stronger bang. Also keeps them from saying that premium fuel is needed.
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Greenmr
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
02:53:31
| RE: Death Flash
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Is there any way to tell if this has been done? I just picked up a 2002 QC that was a lease return, so I don't have the full history on it.
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ticats
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
07:32:22
| RE: Death Flash
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Unless D-C has changed their way of doing things, they used to have an 'AB' at the end of one of the numbers on the pcm to denote timing has been retarded (or that pcm is the CA version).
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Texas Todd
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
08:37:30
| RE: Death Flash
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Anthony,
If it retards the timing, The plug fires LATER, right?
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
10:13:10
| RE: Death Flash
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Yeah , thats what I thought. Sooner it would detonate.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
10:52:04
| RE: Death Flash
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retarding the spark timing moves the spark closer to the top of the compression stroke.
If the spark occurs right when the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke, the piston will have already moved down part of the way into its power stroke before the gases in the cylinder have reached their highest pressures.
So yeap, I got that backwards. Sorry
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
11:34:27
| RE: Death Flash
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I read somewhere it is best performance when the flame front hits the piston when its on the way down 15-20 deg. after TDC.
Just thought I would add that.
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eallen
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
14:19:48
| RE: Death Flash
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I'm pretty sure I have the "Death Flash" I have had and still have problems with my 4.7 pinging on med - hard acceleration. I have also switched to a colder plug with no difference in pinging. With the "Death Flash" (or whatever flash I have) there is a noticible decrease in power but it is not that much. I would rather have the decrease than the pinging but my problem now is that I have both a decrease in power and it is still pinging. I have switched to 93 octane and have minimal pinging but it seems that the engine runs MUCH better on the 93 than the 87 or even 89 for that matter. I guess this is just something I have to live with for now as DC says that this is a "charastic" of my engine and will do nothing further to fix the problem... what a crock of $h1t! I am thinking of going through Chrysler's arbitration process to get a resolution to this but it sounds like this problem is more common than I thought.
The *one* thing that did help the pinging was a update to the TCM for shift points. Apparently it doesn't let the engine get as much load before shifting. According to the tech this increases hp and acceleration as well.
Sorry to be so long-winded but this whole "death flash" and pinging thing sucks!!
----------------------
2001 4.7L 4x4 QC
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ME 111
R/T
1/29/2003
14:51:30
| RE: Death Flash
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Message:
EAllen .. That sucks.
Not sure if this the same for you as I have the 5.9, but I just recently took mine in for service due to pinging and other stuff and specifically told them not to FLASH the PCM. Well, they didn't FLASH it...just replaced it. But they did not replace it due to the pinging but instead due to it throwing a P601.
The cause of the PING according to them was due to the belt tensioner being locked which they replaced as well as the belt. No PING anymore and the butt dyno is about the same although they had it for about two weeks so my dyno might be off.
Good luck with it all the same.
Flame Red '99 R/T CC
52mm TB - HomeBrewed K&N Intake, 3923 AutoLites, Taylor 8mm wires, TPS @.73 , 180 TStat , Falken 285/60/R17s on Rear, RoadMaster Active Suspension, SS rollpan, XTang soft Tonneau, Mopar Bra
And one Heavy Foot
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
15:48:16
| RE: Death Flash
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I know my PCM on my 5.9L R/T was updated before I got it, Maybe that's why I've never had a problem with pinging. Don't feel bad about your 4.7L. I've been in a 2001MY chevy with the 5.3L that pinged also. Be glad you don't have piston slap too. I've never had problems like that with my other cars, maybe that's why the foreign market has been taking over domestic sales for years now in the car section. Nissan Titan truck might take some American sales away too, not that I would be caught dead in one of those.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
15:55:41
| RE: Death Flash
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http://www.motorcities.com/contents/03A7L204622376.html
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
15:58:31
| RE: Death Flash
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http://www.freshalloy.com/site/cars/nissan/2004/titan/debut/home.shtml
Cool Site
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eallen
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2003
19:09:48
| RE: Death Flash
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ME 111,
I really had no choice... at first I told them not to flash the PCM but they said that they wouldn't look into it any further until the PCM was updated. The dealer heard the pinging and agreed that there was a problem but now all of the sudden it's a "charastic" The dealer even had the front half of the motor apart to make sure there wasn't anyghing else causing the problem... everything checked out ok. The only thing I can think of is that maybe my PCM is bad... it seems that everytime they update it or do anything to it the pinging goes away for about 1-2 weeks. This makes me think that the PCM may be "learning" wrong and trying to compensate for something it shouldn't because it does fine for the first 1-2 weeks.
Another funny thing is that if, for example, I run 87 octane and switch to 89 it does fine for a month or so and then starts pinging on the 89 then I switch to 93 and it does fine for a while on that until it starts pinging again! Last time this happened I brought it to the dealer where they did the shift point update, combustion chamber cleaner, fuel injection cleaner, and replaced all 8 fuel injectors. I am to the point again where in 2-3 months I'm sure I will be pinging on the 93 again.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
09:10:41
| RE: Death Flash
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Does the ping occur with out any A/C load? (off)
You could try an even colder plug than what you run now. How many miles does your engine have? Oil deposits on the piston increase compression that can cause ping. I wonder if it's running lean under load, that could cause ping too! Weak fuel pump, clogged fuel fliter? Bad PVC valve?
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Texas Todd
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
09:26:44
| RE: Death Flash
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Bad Gas?
My 01,Qc,4.7,5spd manual, 3.55LSD, tire and handling group, with Trailer towing, etc.
once pinged on highway accelleration when pulling my boat.
Never bought gas at the mom and pop gas station where I had my last fillup, and never had pinging again.
I don't have the death flash, and will make sure not to get it.
I always run that good 'ol 87 octane gas, never any pinging.
other mods, HO cams, homebrew with K&N, no belt fan, ported 68 mm TB, Ait adj. (turned off)
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eallen
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
12:01:17
| RE: Death Flash
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Yes, it pings with a/c off. One cylinder was running lean, that's when the dealer replaced all of the fuel injectors. The fuel pressure and volume was also checked and all came back fine. I am currently running autolite 3923 plugs (they really didn't help much) I have 31K miles now. As far as gas... I used to get gas at only Amoco and then switched to Shell.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
12:48:33
| RE: Death Flash
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Most gas come from the same few refineries located in the US, so it's going to depend mostly of the condition of the tank in the ground. So some older ones leak and collect water that mixes in with the gas. Always try to hit new gas stations and don't get gas from the station if you see a fueling truck there, it stirs up any debree on the bottom of the tanks.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
12:52:35
| RE: Death Flash
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Did they check the IAT sensor, O2 sensor? Wrong readings could cause bad air/fuel mixture. If your stuck with this truck, I would suggest getting a a/f meter installed, then you can see what really going on under load, not at the dealers while it idles.
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ME 111
R/T
1/30/2003
13:14:28
| RE: Death Flash
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Message:
I agree with Anthony as it seems the stealership you are taking it to has given up. Either that or try a different stealership ... PING is not acceptable especially under warranty as far as I'm concerned. If you do not already have them stating that it is acceptable in writing ... get it in writing. Last resort would be to run 87 octane and run the hell out of it ignoring the ping and when she really screws up ... they will have no choice but to fix prior to warranty expiration. I feel for you man but what else besides arbitration is a man to do. Good luck with it.
Flame Red '99 R/T CC
52mm TB - HomeBrewed K&N Intake, 3923 AutoLites, Taylor 8mm wires, TPS @.73 , 180 TStat , Falken 285/60/R17s on Rear, RoadMaster Active Suspension, SS rollpan, XTang soft Tonneau, Mopar Bra
And one Heavy Foot
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eallen
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
17:07:57
| RE: Death Flash
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The dealer was working the the DC tech center. The tech center had the dealer drive the truck with the computer hooked up to it while it pinged and capture all of the sensor outputs. The tech center is the one saying that it is a "characteristic" so I don't think another dealer will do any good because once the tech center gets involved they will just say the same thing. I've been on the phone twice with DC customer relations and b!tched at them for about 1 hour each time with the same results... "it is a characteristic and it won't hurt." When I ask for it in writing I get refered to the owner's manual that says "light spark knock under low engine speed is normal however heavy spark knock at high engine speeds is not normal" I remind them that this is neither light spark knock nor at low engine speeds!!! Because of this damn ping thing I taked myself into purchasing the extended warranty... a $2,000 expense but probably well worth it in the long run. I love the truck but the pinging has to be stopped!
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
17:30:54
| RE: Death Flash
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Do they give you a discount for purchasing the extended warrenty early? If not don't buy it until you current one is about to expire. That way you don't get stuck paying intrest at blank % thru out the payment loan. 3-5-6years
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2003
17:36:23
| RE: Death Flash
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I'll suggest installing the orginal hot plugs back in and run the lowest octane you can get. That way it's back to stock form and your not paying the extra money for nothing at the pump.
Have the engine ping away, if it fails then they can replace the whole engine.
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Todd
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2003
01:27:35
| RE: Death Flash
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Something that has been missed in this thread is that one thing that is a BIG help to reduce ping is going to a lower temperature thermostat. By reducing the temperature in the engine as a whole, you also reduce the tendency for the fuel air mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite quite as quickly. This delay in ignition can help reduce ping. I have personally seen noticable improvement in a variety of vehicles from a 93 Mazda pickup to an LT 1 Corvette.
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Kowalski
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2003
13:27:54
|  RE: Death Flash
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Don't Know how they could call that a "characteristic" of the 4.7. My '00 won't ping even towing 3000 lbs uphill on 87 octane with 3.55 gears and the AC on. And yes, I've driven enough Chevy's to know what it sounds like. Keep after them 'til they figure the problem out !
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eallen
Dodge Dakota
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2/01/2003
15:38:03
| RE: Death Flash
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Thanks for all your replies. I plan to start bothering them once the weather gets warmer. Plus I just purchased an extended warranty so I can leave my truck with them for a couple days and not have to pay for a rental car. I have thought of a cooler thermostat... how difficult / what is involved in changing to a lower temp one?
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