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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
14:13:36
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 Subject: RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Well now that both bosses are out of house for the afternoon, I need to register on the dto.org gallery and post 'em.....
I'll get the part# when the Summit Box shows up. Hope that'll be Friday so I can get it installed on Saturday.
Give me some time to clean 'em up & size 'em....
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
14:28:30
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Canucker
I sold the Mustang back in September in order to get the Paxton, but when I placed the order, they told me I would have to wait, because of problems, (not prepared) they weren't ready to ship yet.
So, we took the money I got from the sale and put it towards our down-payment on our house.
I did it under one condition. My wife was to understand that when I got my Christmas bonus this year, it was to directly go to the Supercharger....
I talked with Dave at JDSperformance this morning. He placed the order after my check cleared yesterday.. He said Paxton usually ships within 3-5 days, and then to make it here from Cali via UPS ground, it would take another 5 days or so. I'm hoping it will be in sometime before the weekend after Christmas.
I would like to do the install on December 27&28th.
Holiday rush with UPS may push me into the weekend after though.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
15:44:51
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Okay....
1. I don't feel like linking pics, so go to here:http://dodgetrucks.org/cgi-bin/index.pl?cat=500&user=379&thumb=1
and check out all the graphs.
2. I found an old Matt Barret dyno graph and HE'S got the same dip in his curve, but not as bad. The graph was before he removed his clutch fan or the short belt.
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
15:56:45
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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That's cool....
I'll see if I can dig my dynosheet up when I get home...I haven't seen it since we moved.
I would like to compare...
good deal...Thanks for the post.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
16:19:07
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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man that dip in hp is messed up! I've never seen that before! Looks like a VTEC dyno curve or something .. .wtf? its gotta be a PCM thing .. the spark like you said.
messed up is all I can say.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
16:47:36
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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I can damn sure feel it on the road, and I never had noticed it, but Matt barret's looks the same, just not as bad. What an odd thing....
Two more degrees from 3100 rpm on up. Make it so!
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
20:27:46
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Alex...I'm going to try to post a sorry scan of my dyno...
You want to talk about a dip?
Hopefully it works...
This is stock, no modifications to the computer.
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
20:30:09
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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let's try again
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
20:31:27
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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The blue was made from going 1st-4th to redline, clicking the button in 4th.
You can clearly see the dip on the red though.
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2002
20:34:58
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Boy I can't wait to see that thing change...
Between 4,000 and 4,500rpm's nice noticeable drop-off.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
09:19:41
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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I'm beginning to think that dip is a product of soemthing else.... like the intake manifold.
Canucker?? heh....
Notch, I think with some extra air flowing in soon, those curves should level right out! hahahaha
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
11:28:20
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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At first I thought it was just the profile of the stock cams, but, You have the HO's???
The heads flow well enough to rev way over 5,500....
Leaving....Intake Manifold.
I can't wait to see a difference on a short runner intake. That may possibly prove to be a big time power adder.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
11:33:34
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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hmmmm .. it may be partially due to the manifold .. but the RPMs don't seem right ... well, they're not bad on nothch's dyno ... if that's with the stock intake... the stock manifold will start going up again in pressure at about 4600-4700RPM or so according to my calcs (it peaks at 1500RPM, then 3100RPM then 6200 RPM give or take)... but the HO manifold shouldn't start coming out of its nose dive until 5700 RPM or so (it peaks at 1900RPM, 3800RPM, then 7600RPM) ... but the dips are at about 4300RPM and 4700RPM ... hmmmm ....
unless of course my numbers are way off .. which is also possible!
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
12:01:57
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Talking out of my asss for a moment, I'd like to suggest that it's the interaction between the huge TB and the shorter runners in the intake manifold. Maybe it shortens the waves that you & ramchargin are discussin over on DTO. But that sort of discussion makes my head hurt....
On the other hand, I know that Marty had some interesting results with the 9" runner manifold that he created.... the MAP sensor freaked out and couldn't handle the fact that almost all of the intake manifold runner material was gone. Basically wihtout the runners in place, the volume of the manifold was greatly increased and the effect was pretty close to a wind tunnel with a hurricane in it.
When Marty fired up the truck (numerous times, not just the first go-round) the MAP sensor couldn't handle all the extra air flow, richened up the mixture and the idle shot to 3000 rpm, which (of course) brought more air into the manifold and it then just kept revving to 6000 rpm. Basically, there's no idle.
Now, we were discussing this problem about three weeks ago, and I haven't asked about any updates yet. But, if he can figure out the electronics to fool the thing into running correctly, we may have a hell of a combo on the way. I sort of hope he can figure it out before I head down there in the spring. I'll be a guinea pig once again.....
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notch
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
12:03:51
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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It's almost as if it stops for a second to catch its breath..
Yes it could be the combination...But..The biggest restriction at that point in my opinion would be the intake.
The fuel is there...We've established that.
Oh hell, I've fried too many brain cells to think about it too hard....
That's what I have you guys for. To tell me. haha
Canucker..Try briefly explaining why the HP and torque dip off that hard in a strong pull...
I looked at my Mustangs dyno, and it just peaks at 4,200rpm, then gradually falls off. No dips. Plateau maybe...But this sucker is sliding down the mountain, then running back up. I'm just having a hard time seeing why this would happen.
I would appreciate it, because I'm totally lost.
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notch
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
12:15:08
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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I'm typin to slow....I see your post there...
Not exactly what was on my mind but...I see what you're saying.
Some sort of control of the MAP sensor should be programmable in the flashes, right?
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
13:04:49
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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well here's my thought ... it goes back to the timing ... maybe the factory PCM was programmed with the exact airflow of the stock manifold at WOT, and adjusts the WOT timing based on that ... now, if you go an change that airflow profile, the PCM doesn't know you changed it, so it might still have the timing pulled out a degree or so at certain RPMs, thinking there's less air there ... hell I don't know??
One thing I'm still guessing on, is the length of the intake runner in the head... has Marty mentioned it to you alex? or does anyone know it? basically the length from where the head seals to the manifold, to the intake valve. I'm guessing its between 2" and 4", but that's just a guess based on dyno charts I've seen.
As far as Marty's manifold, I think what may be happening (maybe) is the runners are too short, and possibly too wide or possibly the plenum its too small. I'm not sure. But if that's the case, the aircharge rushing down the runner would hit the closed intake valve, turn around and head back to the plenum, either the plenum is too small to reflect the air back down the runner, or the runners are too big and the air isn't flowing enough to generate any velocity or the runners are too short and the air has too much momentum coming back to the plenum and doesn't get reflected back ... either way, what would happen is the pressure in the plenum would fluctuate a lot at low RPMs and the MAP sensor might pick up all these fluctuations, and the PCM would freak out and not know what to do... maybe ... just talking outta my arse too. If I were him, I'd try relocating the MAP sensor.. put it at the end of a long, thing (but not too long and thin) tube. The tube will act as a damper and quiet down the fluctuations. If it's too long and thing though, it wont react fast enough to a change in plenum vacuum. It'd be pretty easy to calculate I think.
If none of that made any sense .. it could be my poor proofreading and poor english and grammar, but here's as breif an explaination as I can put together (still leaving out some stuff):
The intake on the dakota is designed with really long runners .. this maximizes the 'internal supercharging' affect of tuned length runners. Basically what happens is the air rushes down the runners when the intake valve is open, then when the valve slams shut, the air still has momentum so it all ploughs into the valve (kinda like rush hour on the freeway when some old lady slams on the brakes to let the weasel cross the road! lol). Anyhow, the air hits the valve, then is reflected back towards the plenum (at the speed of sound cause its a shock wave). when it hits the plenum, it hits the air mass sitting inside it. when it hits that, it gets reflected back down the runner again .. towards the intake valve. Now, if the valve opens at the exact time that the pressure wave gets back to it, you have a higher pressure air mass, with velocity and momentum, ready to enter the cylinder, without the cylinder even having to work for it (i.e. create vacuum from crank power) .. the result: more air into the cylinder and less work done by the crank. .. GOOD.
So it's all good right. wrong. the time it takes the air to hit the intake valve, go back to the plenum, then hit the intake valve again is constant (well, it varies with temperature) .. but the time between the intake valve opening varies with RPM ... thus, you can only tune the runner length for a specific RPM. ... incidently, the total runner length required for 3300RPM is about 4.7m long (15.4 feet!) .. this is ungodly long, so what the engineers do is take a harmonic length of that 4.7m ... what happens is the air will travel up and down the runner a number of times before the intake valve opens again (it sets up a "standing wave" with a high pressure "nodes" at each end - the wave is called a 'harmonic' if it has more than one node at each end ... the dakota manifold uses the 4th harmonic). The plus is you get to use shorter runners .. the downside is with each time the pressure wave travels up and down the runner, it loses its intensity (about 10-20% I think) ... sooo (heh .. breath .. must rest fingers) ... longer runners basically mean a more 'intense' supercharging affect .. but its a two way street. The farther away from the optimal RPM you get, the lower the pressure will be at the intake valve .. its called an anti-node .. that's where the nose-diving comes in. Because if there's a high pressure node formed at 3300RPM, there's a low pressure node at 5000RPM .. or if there's a high pressure node at 3800RPM, there's a low pressure node at 5500RPM etc etc .
The reason you don't see as big of a nose dive on the Mustang is not only are the runners are shorter than the Dakota's, but there's a small plenum in the middle of them. It's not as suceptable to the 'anti-nodes' but at the same time, doesn't get the full benifit of the 'nodes' cause the pressure waves aren't as intense. ... but the 5.0L pushrod can only muster 300ft-lbs of torque (stock) at 4200RPM .. whereas the litte 4.7L overhead cam still pulls 295ft-lbs at a low 3100 RPM (stock) ... but also why the 5.0L push rod will pull hard to 5500-6000RPM and the OHC engine falls on its face at 5500RPM.
I use the 5.0L example cause I'm not as familiar with the 4.6L intake design .. but think about this, the 4.6L in the truck puts out, what, 293 ft-lbs @3x00RPM, but only has 220hp or something .. but the same engine (tuned a bit differeng) puts out the same torque @ 4x00RPM in the Mustang, and 280hp or something...
did that make any sense, or even come close to answering your question???
sorry for the book ... I think that was the longest post I've ever written! Any comments, suggestions?
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
13:34:28
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Let me read it 10 more times....
I'm sure I'll have some questions....
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
14:25:09
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Alright Canucker....
On your first point at the top...
I think you were just brain-storming there.
Here's my take, yes that seems to make very much sense. As you changed the profile of the airflow by adding more airflow with a larger TB, the PCM does not know how to react, in some cases actually retarding timing, not knowing what's going on.
but... The dyno on mine reflects a STOCK set-up. If the dip is there stock, that would rule that out. Right?
On with the novel...
If I understood what you were explaining, the nose dive is provided courtesy of VALVE TIMING in conjunction to the ammount of pressure whether it be high or low at the time of the valve opening. In the dips case...Low pressure. 4,000rpm, then as rpm builds, so does the intake volume pressure, thus creating the High pressure "harmonic" NODE...increasing the HP...
Boy it's easy to let your mind wander here. I can't see straight.
Sounds like it's time to go get some sheet metal, and a welder, and try a science experiment.
If we or someone else was to make an intake. Given that the PCM was programmed to dump the right ammount of fuel, and the timing was correct, we would make the plenum shorter, runners as fat as possible, yet shorter,and with as little bend as possible in order to have less room for the air to travel, and to stay in the NODE MODE...And away from ANTINODE land...OK, so I just blew that out my ass....Just bored I guess.
I'll sit on the side lines from now on and let you guys figure it out.
I'll throw my occassional "Yeah, What he said" in.
Another Brain FART...In the case of forced induction..Wouldn't I want the runners to be as short as possible, to get the most of my $3,550? Shorter the runner the more pressurized the air.
Better performance...
Now having the smaller runners..Won't this take away from lower end torque and HP?...Not really a concern over a few HP down low (idle-2,500rpm or so), with the powerband being much higher.
If it looks like I've been talking out my ass, it's because I have, but like I said, I'll sit this one out from now on.
Thanks for trying to help me find the light.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
14:52:37
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Excedrin.....
Uhm, the runner in the head is either 4" or 5" because the combined total is 9" of runner length that Marty's working with. The tube sounds like a good idea, unless you can mimick the buffering effect with electronics. Marty's doing math down there, as well, though maybe not as detailed as you are in Canada. I think some of the harmonic info has been worked out ahead of time and he's just basing his equation like this:
Certain Runner Length=Certain RPM Where Power Will Peak
Right now, the 500 hp NA motor that's he tuning on will have the 9" runner length (total). I think that the heads have 4" of runner on them. I wonder if they were a longer total length, would the idle condition be lessened?? At the same time, I'm also assuming that the longer runner length might move the power peak back down from 6800 rpm (where the 500 hp motor is currently) to a more reasoable 6000 rpm? That way I could shift at 6800 (on my 6000 rpm tach, right?) and be right in the power peak.....
I just wonder if more timing will overcome the dips? I'd really love for a power curve that started at 2000 and went in a smooth arc out to 6000. Guess that's not a reality with this intake design. Guess Duner's sheet-metal intake idea would be handy. Short runners with almost NO plenum.... (look at the pro-stockers, etc).
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
14:59:11
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Holy BeJeebus.....
I type too slow. That intake concept that Notch was just describing is exactly what Duner was tossing around earlier in the year. Who's got a TIG welder? Time to go aluminum....
As for shorter runners for more boost.... notice that the KB does away with any intake manifold at all?? Yup. Only 4" runners for max boost, and yet, it's max boost down low. Wonder if the Paxton would benefit from a shorter more compact plenum. Kinda makes you wish you could fill the stocker with some sort of core material to get the air to flow around it into the runners quicker. Kind of like welding one of the beer-barrel intakes shut with plate aluminum. Seen that mod? Reduce the volume, raise the peak power rpm and make the beer barrel scream..... Hmmmmm.......
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
15:29:41
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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man .. this is getting deeper eh? well from the top:
NOTCH:
"The dyno on mine reflects a STOCK set-up. If the dip is there stock, that would rule that out. Right?"
.. yeah, I don't know. can't explain that one.
"If I understood what you were explaining, the nose dive is provided courtesy of VALVE TIMING..."
yup .. partially. The runner length and RPM at peak TQ are dependent on intake duration ... variable valve timing gets around this issue a bit. It essentially flattens out the extremes of the peaks
"Boy it's easy to let your mind wander here. I can't see straight. "
LOL ... tell me about it!
"In the case of forced induction..Wouldn't I want the runners to be as short as possible, to get the most of my $3,550? "
Not necessarily... where the long runners kill forced induction hp isn't the length, but the diameter. The stock runners are designed for N/A CFM numbers ... once you get the CFM numbers in forced induction, the velocity of the intake air goes way up and so does the friction loss of that high speed air. forced or N/A, the air will behave the same way in reaction to runner length, just not nearly as dramatically (i.e. the runner length might change the psi at the intake valve inlet by 1 psi or so .. well that's huge for a N/A engine, but not as big of a change for a forced induction engine)
"Now having the smaller runners..Won't this take away from lower end torque and HP"
yes and no .. the shorter runners of say the HO versus the stock manifold cause peaks at 1900RPM and 3800RPM versus 1600RPM and 3100RPM ... so you still have that TQ down low, its just moved up a few hundred RPM.
alex:
"Certain Runner Length=Certain RPM Where Power Will Peak "
That's pretty much what it boils down to.
" I wonder if they were a longer total length, would the idle condition be lessened??"
who knows ... maybe??
"I'm also assuming that the longer runner length might move the power peak back down from 6800 rpm (where the 500 hp motor is currently) to a more reasoable 6000 rpm?"
yup .. like you said though, good luck shifting at 6800RPM with your 6000RPM tach! ha ha ... maybe just memorize what the engine sounds like at 6800RPM.
"I type too slow. That intake concept that Notch was just describing is exactly what Duner was tossing around earlier in the year. Who's got a TIG welder? Time to go aluminum...."
No doubt! If I had a welder and knew how to lay a half-a$$ed weld, I'd give it a go. but I don't have a welder, and my welds look like a baboon's a$$ with baaad hemroids
"As for shorter runners for more boost.... notice that the KB does away with any intake manifold at all?? Yup. Only 4" runners for max boost, and yet, it's max boost down low. Wonder if the Paxton would benefit from a shorter more compact plenum. Kinda makes you wish you could fill the stocker with some sort of core material to get the air to flow around it into the runners quicker. Kind of like welding one of the beer-barrel intakes shut with plate aluminum. Seen that mod? Reduce the volume, raise the peak power rpm and make the beer barrel scream..... Hmmmmm......."
I think the main reason KB has short/no runners is packaging .. that and they get boost build up fast cause there isn't much volume to pressurize.
I've heard of that beer barrel modification, but never seen it ... do you have any pics?? that'd be cool.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
15:39:20
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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Here's a link you may find an interesting read:
FSAE Intake Design
Maybe they explain things a bit better than me :) heehee
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
15:52:17
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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I took a closer look at my stock dyno and it looks like I have the dip there too .. even less pronounced though .. right at 4000-4100RPM
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
16:07:38
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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So, there's your dip..... It looks to me like the more mods you do, the harsher the dip gets.... as in my graph on DTO. Look at the HP only curve and it's easier to read.
Also, here's the fill-up-the beer-barrel mod:
It comes from Hughes website. www.hughesengines.com
I'm not a big Hughes fan, but they were making the Magnum motors go fast a long time ago. They have really dropped the ball on the 4.7 motor, in my opinion. But that's another thread.
Notice the cut-down runners and the filler material in the middle. And the cut down divider (hell they even left the EGR tube in this one).... Same principle, older intake. Fill it up and shorten the runners.
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notchlx
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
16:22:44
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uh huh...Yep Yep... What he said...
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
16:23:28
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http://www.hughesengines.com/www/hughesengines/general/intakes/magnum_intake.asp
scroll right to the bottom ... how the heck did they internally modify the intake without taking it apart??? wtf? man, these guys never cease to amaze me.
I emailed them a month or two ago when the cams first came out, and that 'modified 4.7L intake' was listed on their cam page... I asked them about that and the cams and they never got back to me... jerks. see if I'll buy something off you! ... of course when no one buys any 4.7L parts off them, they'll just say 'see, I told you there was no market for them!'
A quote off their site:
"These are stock exterior intakes that are internally modified to flow more air to the cylinders. The runners are shorter than the HO manifold to provide an increased ram effect at higher RPM. These work well with our HER 9208TR camshafts, Stage I throttle bodies and HP Ported cylinder heads. Sold on an exchange basis.
Part number: 5518 (modified)"
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2002
16:41:16
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They did it the same way Marty did it. Take off the end caps. They told me back in the early part of the year that they were having problems with it sealing. I think Marty's probably having those same problems, even though Marty used to do plastic welding for a living. Guess we'll see....
Yeah between the "No Interest in 4.7's" attitude and the apparently direct robbery of F&B's TB design, I am pretty done with Hughes. Oh well....
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jaggy
GenIII
12/19/2002
17:05:58
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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I am not very technical when it comes to engines but I have been spending alot of time reading about the 4.7 and different mods.
the issue with the rich mixture reminded me of a MAP mod that I read about on Speedtweaks.
I am very interested in moding my engine but want to make sure my $ is spent in the correct place.
this flash seems like a good way to go if you guys get it working.
here is the article hop it helps. it refers to an idle problem with a cam but it does mention the richness at low rpms.
Poor idle with big cam (Less than 112 degrees on Lobe Separation)
If you install a larger cam that has a Lobe Separation of less than 112 degrees, you will notice a very poor idle (sometimes dies at the light) and running too rich at idle as well. This is caused by the MAP signal being too low due to the cam. The MAP vacuum at idle (with a stock cam) is 12-13" at the MAP port on the throttle body. With a larger cam, that has a 108-110 degree Lobe Separation, the vacuum at the MAP port is 6-8". This is too low and will cause poor idle qualities. Also...make sure you set the distributor in properly as there is only ONE WAY that is correct. Set the distributor index (fuel sync) at 4 (+/-1) after the initial break-in (fire up).
Plug the MAP port on the throttle body and relocate the MAP line to manifold vacuum (should be about 12-13" at idle). This will simulate the factory signal and your idle quality will be back to normal. There is no adverse affect on the cruise or WOT performance with this modification.
Recommendation: Select a Cam with 112-114 degrees Lobe Separation. They are MAP friendly.
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graphiteRT
R/T
12/19/2002
17:23:10
| RE: Leach Reflash Update Again
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You don't want a cam that gives you anything less than 12", that's correct, but the stock cam comes in at the high teens. My aftermarket 214/218 .520 lift 114 CL idles above 13.5" Hg. I'm not a fan of that MAP port move deal. The factory calculations are done based on the factory port. You move it indiscriminantly and the results are unpredicatable. Basically treating the symptom and not the disease.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s
Soon: Viper 4 wheel discs
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