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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
12:34:15
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 Subject: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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http://members.cox.net/fastdodge/stock.mpg
http://members.cox.net/fastdodge/m1.mpg
Stock.mpg had no mods
M1.mpg had the 2bbl m1 with a F&B 50mm TB.
Current mods video soon to come, I just had Bestbuy replace my Video Cam battery.
Watch and listen to the M1.mpg, You'll see that power doens't come on untill 3000 and the bog which doesn't clear up until 3600rpm's. Remember this is 1st gear, and that 2nd 3rd and 4th gear the bog is notice more. Mostly from 2nd to 3rd around 70mph. Due to the gear ratio and the rpm shift points. PS you'll need something other than an internal computer speaker to hear what I'm talking about more than the video shows.
BTW I've had used the M1 2bbl with Lrg turtle until a month ago. I was running, M1 2bbl, Lrg Turtle, Gutted cat, 2.02 R/T heads, 50mm TB, Gibson heads, FIPK2 K&N, IAT, AUTOLITES, JBL9mm WIRES, BORG warner cap,rotor, crank sensor mod, magnaflow muffler KRC206 cam, 1.7 Mopar Rockers.
Was not happy with performance, should of had much more power. Above 4000rpms power was good, but that's it.
Performance is great with my current setup.
FIPK2,50MM TB, KRC206,2.02 R/T HEADS, MAGNAFLOW MUFFLER, CRANK SENSOR MOD, NGK's. EVERYTHING ELSE STOCK.
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MikeD
*R/T*
12/12/2002
13:06:05
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Hey Anthony...install an MSD and upgrade your coil and install a high flow fuel pump w/ those bigger heads and cam and you'll notice a big difference in performance.
I think I got my combo right where I want it, of course that N02 thought has been bouncin back n forth in my head lol.
~Mike~
Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
13:40:42
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Looks to me like your 0-60 time is better WITH the M1, even with that slight bog (I don't have the bog btw).
cryppie
MODS
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
13:46:58
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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The M1 also had the 50MM TB and FIPK2 K&N SYSTEM which helped it out, not to mention it almost had a empty fuel tank VS the New engine with no mods and a full tank of gas. If you time them, the stock is faster.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
14:02:42
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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BTW my stock dyno's made 303tq@3400 rmps at the wheels.
Mike D, yes the 2.02 heads did cause some loss of tq that was notice with the M1 intake, after installing the Stock intake, I could not see any effects of lost tq with the heads anymore, but it retained a good amount of power still by having the cam and heads at higher speeds. I now have a good idle to 5000rpms power range.
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MikeD
*R/T*
12/12/2002
15:09:31
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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My buddy has the same mods we do and he had the same idea to swap out the intakes and he actually lost a half second w/ the stock beer keg on. So he put his M-1 back on, he said it definatley felt more torque but on the top end it ran outta breath.
~Mike~
Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
15:10:47
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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eww , whats that bog right @ 2700 rpm ? That sux. I dont have that with my M1 2 brl & sm. turtle. You sound pretty convinced its the M1 doing that. You sure its not computer related or something with the timing or fuel ? I dunno , dude. Nice videos BTW.
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Lesley
GenIII
12/12/2002
15:18:35
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Is it absolutely necessary to install a turtle with a
2bbl? Or can you compensate for torque loss with a
different cam. I just got a GREAT deal on an M1
complete with billet 52mm TB. Is it a pain to install?
The fuel rails have to be adapted right?
97 3.9 CC Sport. JBA stainless headers, Borla Turbo XL stainless muffler & tip, 17 x10 Boyd Coddington Smoothies, FMS injectors, V8 TB, Quick D intake, Have but not Installed yet: 5.9 litre 360, posi, 3.92s, ceramic JBAs.
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MikeD
*R/T*
12/12/2002
15:25:04
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Only painful thing about the M-1 install is pulling off all the ac brackets and moving all the stuff in front of the intake, other than that its easy.
If you got the Mopar fuel rail spacers then yeah you'll have to grind those down in order for the injectors to sit in its seat. I ended up shaving off quite off, more than I thought it would be.
They are saying people that had the large turtle are throwing that away and getting the Extra large turtle that they say is a big improvement over the large turtle. So you might try that for torque. It only costs like $40
~Mike~
Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
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Lesley
GenIII
12/12/2002
15:38:54
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Why is the turtle necessary - does that mean they
should re-think the design of the M1?
Mine is going on my project 360, with the stock fuel
rails. It comes with install kit, which apparently have
spacers. The good thing is that the motor is out of the
truck, so it should help a bit when it comes to tearing
it apart.
97 3.9 CC Sport. JBA stainless headers, Borla Turbo XL stainless muffler & tip, 17 x10 Boyd Coddington Smoothies, FMS injectors, V8 TB, Quick D intake, Have but not Installed yet: 5.9 litre 360, posi, 3.92s, ceramic JBAs.
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Robbie
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
15:58:36
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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That bog is really strange... I dont have anything like that on mine.
R.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
16:10:58
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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After all the mods, the M1 didn't have the bog as bad like in the Video. All I'm trying to say is, this is not a intake to use if you not going to use the power band from 3500 and up. It just shows it's true power band without any added parts covering up it's down falls.
I wanted tire blazing power all the way into second with good upper end. Idle to 5000rpms. Yes that's what I currently have now with the Beerkeg. Sure the M1 was nice above 4000+rpms but that's it.
From idle to 4500 the beerkeg kicks butt, and with my 2.02 R/T heads and KRC206 cam the extra 300-500 rpms more is no problem to hold power.
I think my main problem with the M1 was the need to go into the mid 5000 rpm range to stay in it's sweet spot if not higher.
I had spent to much money at this point to go any further, I didn't want to spend more and a PCM upgrade,stall converter or gears. And with already having a KRC206 cam, I didn't want to replace it with a KRC210 cam which would hold power longer with cost of torque. It's not like I had any other option on intakes.
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
16:38:12
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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I guess if I had that horrible bog, I would be as anti-M1 as you are Anthony, but I don't... You definitely had something wrong with your setup. Now why you are trying to talk everyone out of getting an M1 is beyond me. Just because the M1 didn't work with your engine/setup/truck doesn't mean it will not work with ours. Your not in the beer keg porting business are you??
I have nothing but good to report with the M1. I had NO low-end loss, my 0-60 times were exactly the same (5.5), but I'm sure my .25 mile times will be better. I would say 500-2500rpm is the same, everything above 2500 is much better. You think I would leave this thing on if it wasn't better than the keg??
Spending the money and time it took to install it was definitely worth it, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, and glad you're happy with the kegger.
cryppie
MODS
PS Lesley, I don't have a turtle.
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MikeD
*R/T*
12/12/2002
16:46:26
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Anthony U might have torque management on your truck that might be where the bog is coming from, I have it too.
~Mike~
Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
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Lesley
GenIII
12/12/2002
16:46:42
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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I was talking to my mechanic prior to buying the M1.
There is a guy who races locally, he has one of the
fastest R/Ts in Ontario. Anyway - he experienced the
same sort of torque loss, and it turned out to be his
mopar pcm.
97 3.9 CC Sport. JBA stainless headers, Borla Turbo XL stainless muffler & tip, 17 x10 Boyd Coddington Smoothies, FMS injectors, V8 TB, Quick D intake, Have but not Installed yet: 5.9 litre 360, posi, 3.92s, ceramic JBAs.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
17:52:29
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Mopar needs to design a better dual plain. But I'm not working on the truck anymore, I'm saving up for a 2004 Hemi based vehical. Either the Charger R/T or Hemi Ram or Dak. As of now, it's all good. So if the PCM was the problem, I guess I'll never know now other than It wasn't the best intake for what I wanted. An idle to 5000 rpm power house, so the beerkeg will have to do with a great idle to 4500rpm HP with a decent 4500-5000rpms HP. So the normal 4800 shift points will do just fine. If it stops raining I might be able to take some footage of some 0-60 times as of now. Maybe even get a dyno run in or two just to get some hard info.
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rtdkota
R/T
12/12/2002
18:52:02
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Guess I need to do a M1-4bbl video NA on the street, and on the track so people can hear the way mine runs with the 1.92s...
If you want some more cool vids-- checkout
www.socaldakota.com/VIDEOS
Anthony, and chance I could get some videos on tape??? I'm working on a full edited video-- and what you have might fit in nicely.
Sam
RTDKOTA
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rtdkota
R/T
12/12/2002
19:04:52
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Watched/and listened the video real closely-- You've got an issue-- Either precats causing a bottle neck-- the 2.02s aren't working for you correctly in that video-- Something ain't right (and I don't think the M1-2bbl is the main reason-- it's only magnify'd the prob.
I'll shoot some video from my truck tonight-- NA-- and you'll see mine does with the M1-4bbl.
The M1-4bbl bog prior to the heads and cam was from off idle to about 1800 rpm max.. everything else was okay.. the torque loss is there, peaking at 3600-- but not hanging anywhere near yours (and a 4bbl bogs WAY more than the 2bbl).
PCM, timing, fuel curve, torque management, something.. you'll also notice in the video that your speed sensors LAGS majorly from O-15 mph... That's a function of the speed sensor and PCM-- if they PCM things you are 'spinning' your tires (or it thinks you have accelerated in RPMs much faster than the rate of which the speed sensor is reading-- it'll whack the timing/fuel to do it's traction control garbage...) I bet that's what's happening.. you might have a slow responding speed sensor--- and that's pissing off the pcm!
Sam
RTDKOTA
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Brett A
Dodge Dakota
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12/12/2002
23:54:15
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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2 questions what is a turtle and WTF is up with that bog. I thought mine was bad somthin aint right on your truck. Is that an 01?
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/13/2002
11:59:43
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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The M1 video only shows what the truck did with the M1 and 50MMTB installed. The bog was due to the tires slipping even on the course pavement.
With not getting enough grip the momentum of the truck was not enough by the time it hit 2500-3000rpms where the M1 lacks torque too push vs the Beerkeg.
That why you didn't hear any squeals, unlike a glassy surface like a track strip. When I had all my mods and the M1 install, it did take off nicely with the 3.92 gears when it caught traction, but power dipped some around 2500-3500 then took off like a screaming banshee after that. But by adding my stock intake back, I have no dips and it takes off like a screaming banshee for idle to about 5000rpm, mainly shifts around 4800rpms. Great for normal driving too! Sounds like a turbo with all the air sucking down the K&N.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/13/2002
12:04:36
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Yea, that cool rtdkota. I got a few videos, some track, donuts, 0-60's, small burnout, I can now make some more since I just had my battery replaced by bestbuy :) They gave me this huge double size vs my old single size.
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Lesley
GenIII
12/13/2002
12:10:27
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Did you port your kegger, or just put it right back on?
The M1 I just bought has a 52 mm billet TB on it - I
wonder what kind of gains that will make, lots more
air going in that's for sure.
97 3.9 CC Sport. JBA stainless headers, Borla Turbo XL stainless muffler & tip, 17 x10 Boyd Coddington Smoothies, FMS injectors, V8 TB, Quick D intake, Have but not Installed yet: 5.9 litre 360, posi, 3.92s, ceramic JBAs.
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psychoRT
Dodge Dakota
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12/13/2002
12:21:10
|  RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Two words! Torque converter!
Yall are adding a intake manifold made for a built engine. Its designed for a upper range cam and a high stall converter so you dont not have that lag. Slapping on a intake manifold that is not designed for off idle say 800rpm on a stokc truck with a stock stall and stock cam that is designed for power off idle and up to 5000 rpm you will get lag and bogging.
On mopar trucks its best do do intake manifold, converter and cam all in one shot. But then you also have to make sure your heads can flow enough and your valvesprings can keep up. Generally in the dodge trucks they are good up to 5200 or 5500 rpm before you get valve float.
So its better to get your exhaust and everything setup first. Then slap on the intake, heads cam and stall. And putting a stall on the stock intake manifold is pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. Sure it will help but you are throwing it out of the powerband. You have a intake that builds power of idle and making it skip that part only to use the last 2000 rpm's. ITs better to do everything at once. Get you a good combo thought out in your head then work at it. Thus the reason some people mod there truck piece by piece but claim to lose hp, that is because you dont have the other componet to us it to its full potential.
Just some friendly advice.
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Lesley
GenIII
12/13/2002
12:41:24
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Thanks - I'm with you on that one. The engine (360) is
sitting in my tool room. I've picked out a cam (just
waiting for $$$) I have to find a torque convertor.
I found a good deal on a set of ceramic JBAs, and I
have a borla muffler, so i'm all set exhaust wise. The
tranny will have to do for now, but it is in the plans. I
sure do know about the "bit at a time" setbacks -
when I first put the headers on my sixer, it was a bit of
a pig until I upgraded the TB and muffler. It takes a bit
of patience, but I've go that - you gotta if you don't
have lots of $$$. Oh yeah - I also have the mopar perf.
pcm - but you know that - I bought it from you :)
97 3.9 CC Sport. JBA stainless headers, Borla Turbo XL stainless muffler & tip, 17 x10 Boyd Coddington Smoothies, FMS injectors, V8 TB, Quick D intake, Have but not Installed yet: 5.9 litre 360, posi, 3.92s, ceramic JBAs.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/13/2002
12:52:40
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Lesly,
I just used the stock intake, I'm sure Huges Stage2 intake would work even better for the setup I want.
psychoRT,
That's my point, I didn't want to throw on another stall converter and PCM (More than Hypertechs 500rpm upped limit) that would raise the RPM limit More like 5600-5800rpms, that would leave me with a cam that couldn't supply my other parts. KRC206 idle to 5000 rpm's.
So in the long run, I should of skipped the M1 2bbl and got the Stage 2 Beer keg. Now the R/T 2.02 heads are nice, but stock ported heads with stronger springs might of giving me better torque and hp at lower RPM's.
At the time of purchasing the parts, not many people had tried this setup without already using a supercharger or having a PCM and a stall converter already.
I got a pretty good idea now what would work and not work.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/13/2002
12:54:51
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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One more things, shorty headers suck you want real power find some full length headers.
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psychoRT
Dodge Dakota
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12/13/2002
12:57:57
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Yup yup, how is that thing working out for you?
But yea you cant actually do a performance test on something like a intake manifold when you dont have every thing else to make it work properly. Its like throwing 2.02 heads on a stock 318. Sure you might see some inprovment. But docking it because you spent 2 grand on something that gave you 10 hp because you dont have the truck modified enough to make use of it is the wrong way to go about it. That is just my .02!
Lesley has a good idea. Buy you a block and build you a motor outside of the truck. Its less hassle and you have the time to do what you need it to do.
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psychoRT
Dodge Dakota
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12/13/2002
13:00:55
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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The hows it going was for lesley, my post was a little late.
Anthony, now your talking. That is the best plan. Get the keg's runners matched to what your powerband and what you like. Make yourself a strong combo and base it on what your needs are.
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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12/14/2002
09:03:39
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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"ITs better to do everything at once. Get you a good combo thought out in your head then work at it. Thus the reason some people mod there truck piece by piece but claim to lose hp, that is because you dont have the other componet to us it to its full potential. Just some friendly advice."
-PsychoRT
You said it right there , man. Ive put on headers/exhaust , TB , PCM , K&N , plugs , wires , 180stat , A/F controller and and getting minimal results. M1 did give some good gains. But all that $$$ spent and not getting some good gains is very frustrating.
Its just like putting together a puzzle. When you get the last few pieces on there is when it starts to come together.
Ive got heads , cam , RRs , 2400 stall , and few others waiting to go on..... I should be getting a serious kick in the pants with that stuff.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/14/2002
15:33:13
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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http://members.cox.net/fastdodge/80.mpg
Not too bad,
0-60 about 5.9 little spin
0-80 in 9.5
equals to about a 14.1 quater mile with a beer keg with no boost or NOS. About 4200-4300lbs to move with me in it and 3/4 tank.
BTW thats good enough to beat a 2003 G35 280hp infiniti coupe or 350Z :)
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
12/14/2002
15:53:58
| RE: Stock Vs M1 2bbl Videos
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Hey Anthony , do you have to join that cox website so you can post videos there/here ? I have some vids I wanna share. Where can I do it ?
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