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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2002
20:47:52
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 Subject: throttle body or m1
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hey everyone im getin my m1 bg flash in a week or two, and for christmas i have two options, a throttle body, or money towards the m1, what should i do???which should be done first????thanks.
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b1llyw
DakotaEnthusiast
12/04/2002
21:28:40
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Get the M-1. You can always hand-port your throttle body as a stop-gap.
Bill White - 2002 QC 4x4, SLT , 4.7, 5 spd, 3.92 9.25, 1995 Dakota CC, 4x2, SLT, 318, 5 spd, 3.55 8.25
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03graphrt
Dodge Dakota
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12/04/2002
21:33:38
| RE: throttle body or m1
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yea thats whta i thought just looking for opinions thanks.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
09:57:22
|  RE: throttle body or m1
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Forget the M1, Mopar need to design a dual plan intake that's between the Beerkeg and the M1 Single plan.
If you don't plan on getting a PCM upgrade, and some other major mods, then forget the M1.
3800+ intake. Yes I'm and occasional drag racer at the 1/4 strip, but overall fun factor was not there with the M1 for daily driving. I currently run a 206KRC CAM, R/T 2.02 heads, F&B 50MM TB, FIPK2 K&N, with Magnaflow muffler, gutted cat,timing sensor mod. Good for 14.2 on RSA's at 2000-3000ft. Sea Level would be faster
I currently use the stock intake, manifolds and stock rockers. I just sold my, M1+lgr turtle,Gibson headers,1.7RR, and Mopar Polish Valve covers. IAT MOD AND 9MM wires I don't use.
Now some 1.6RR non-adjustable would be nice. I forgot who sells them. Southeastern R/T?
Next upgrade might be a supercharger, I already have fel-pro gaskets. or SRT-8 :)
All I would have to do for a trade in would be to take off the TB and FIPK to look stock for a good trade value.
So my point is, choose you combo correctly. Save for a supercharger, less hassle, good resale value.
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
11:04:45
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Anthony, on my truck, I had serious fun factor with the 2bbl M1 even before the turtle. I think the heads/cam is what killed your off the line fun. Try some different rear gears like the 4.56 if you want a street demon. With the big heads and cam, you need a M1 to use them. All the beer barrel intake is doing is restricting the airflow into the heads so you aren't using them to their full potential. And if you want to supercharge, the M1 woudl definitly be a good thing to have. From reading your post, it sounds more like you are decreasing your performance for some reason.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
11:23:07
| RE: throttle body or m1
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See, that's my point Who wants to spend a good lump on money on new gears, PCM upgrade and High stall Torque converter? Makes for a unpleasant ride and horrible gas mileage.
The cam I have is rated for 0-5000rpm's and the 2.02 R/T heads do have a bigger intake ports for less port velocity speed, but due to the stock intake with longer runner, it has speed up the port speed so from idle to 4800 the engine rocks. No dead spots, plus 3000-4000rpms the engine pulls like a turbo spooled up! I also own a turbo car too :) Did I mention I already tried the M1?
All I'm saying is, I have a quick truck that doesn't need to pull 5500+ rpms to make power. The 5.9L doesn't like to spin like a 5.2 or smaller engine. Your just looking for trouble pulling high rpms, I know the tranny doesn't like it either. 4800-5000 rpm is plenty fast enough for this big engine. BTW I won't loose much money trading in for a SRT-8. Try taking out the gears when it's time to sell. Plus the 3.92 wine enough. The higher the ratio the louder no matter what oil or how good the install was, plus added heat from it spinning faster. I'm at the point I have good performance without sacrificing reliability and comfort.
Peace out.
Now this engine likes to spin, not the 5.9L
http://thefastman.com/thefastman/hemi/index.htm
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
11:35:54
| RE: throttle body or m1
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One more thing, yes I know the M1 pulls stronger but from multiple people riding with me and butt dyno's its only from 4500 rpms and up. Yes I've ran the engine up to it's 5250 redline and it still pulled vs the beer keg. But the loss down low wasn't acceptable. The power band was too small. My only options at that point was to dump more money for a PCM 5400rpm limiter and throw another cam like a 210KRC with a higher rated power band. So that combo also needs either a higher stall converter or gears. Yet more money, so by the time you get the correct combo for the M1 intake your looking at some major purchases and a drag strip racer. I like the street warrior combo. So for my combo, that's what I recommend. Now if it was a 5-speed the M1 could be a better choice.
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rtdkota
R/T
12/05/2002
13:01:07
| RE: throttle body or m1
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1.92 RT heads, Crower Cam, 1.7s, headers, M1-4bbl (which is a tad big-- but it was free wtf), F&B 52mm...
13.98 @ 98.5 mph NA.. 12.622 @ 108.5 on 100 shot.
2400 stall too-- no gears (stock)... Driveability around town-- it's a ripper! Stop n Go traffic gas mileage is 1 mpg less-- Fwy mileage is the same.. 15.5 mpg... No drivability issues-- With a 2bbl M1, my truck should run .10 quicker NA... Probably .10-15 quicker on 100 shot.
Peak HP at 5450 rpm... Not reving that much more than stock, but making a lot more.. 290 rwhp.
Sam
RTDKOTA
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
14:48:06
|  RE: throttle body or m1
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I just saying what I experienced, must be nice to have a 2000 without pre-cats and being able to get a Mopar PCM. BTW, I forgot to mention the semi common problem with back firing threw the intake is now gone with the stock intake. M1 seems to cause this problem, and sometimes does an extra stroke after the ignition is turned off. Other M1 owners have had this problem. No it was not a intake leak either, I re-installed new gasket trying to fix that problem. I'm sure if I threw in some non-adjustable 1.6rr and some full length headers and maybe a PCM mod that can adjust my timing. I'll be doing 13's easy with the stock kegger. Maybe Holly needs to design a dual plan intake for a 0-5200rpm range. Hell, who knows what times I could do at sea level. But I'm not looking for drag truck. Just a quick truck that can pull trees out of the ground :) LOL
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/05/2002
15:08:06
| RE: throttle body or m1
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if you wanted the power down low, why did you go with the 2.02 heads? the 1.92 or 1.97's would have probably worked better
~Eric
superdupercharged, M-1, 1.7 RR's, 52mm TB, ceramic headers, 3" carsound cat, and gibson muffler
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Robbie
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
15:12:27
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Speaking of the M1... does anyone know if towing is a problem w/ the B&G M1 Flash?
Thanks
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
15:14:08
| RE: throttle body or m1
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The 2bbl M1 with the stock heads and no cam was good for a mid 14 for me. You are right though that with the heads and M1, you need to shift at at least 54-5500 RPM and that requires a custom flash. The backfire problem, I have NEVER experienced except for when my fuel sync was way off. Also might have been cause by fuel injectors not sitting in the bosses correctly. This is the first I have heard about any backfires through the manifold on the M1 that wasn't cause by one of the two known problems I just mentioned. You spent the big money on heads that you had to know woudl kill your low end. If you wanted a wide powerband that you didn't have to rev up to get you, you should have went with the smaller 1.92 or 1.97 heads. The end combo of parts makes a huge difference, and selecting parts that won't get you to your goal is very counter productive. I'll bet if you put the stock heads back on, and the 1.7 rockers combined with the 2bbl M1 you would like the driveability much better than it is right now with the 2.02 heads and beer barrel. The 2.02 heads aren't made for pulling trees out of the ground. Just think if you wanted off the line power and wide power band that only goes to 5000RPM, the 2.02 heads were just the wrong choice. Coudl have saved yourself some money and heartache by researching parts a little better, to match your end goal, before you bought them.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
16:39:06
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Funny that you mention that.
Here is the setup that got me 14.8 in the 1/4 @ 93 with some wheel spin.
M1 2bbl, 1.7rr, F&B 50mm TB, FIPK2 K&N, gibson headers, magnflow muffler.
I do 14.2@97 all day long with wheel spin with 2.02 heads, KRC206 cam, F&B TB, FIPK2 K&N.
And yes the 2.02 did hurt performance under 4000rpms with the M1. But running the R/T heads with the kegger I've gain all the low end and more while still keeping good top end, but not as great as the M1. Overall I have more usable power band than I did with the M1. I'm speaking from my Combo setup. If I saw better times with the M1, I would of kept it. Yes I didn't have the chance to run the full blow M1,with the added Cam and heads in the 1/4, but I have not doubt it's still as fast in the long run right now. I do know it runs better and other passengers say the same.
That's with fiberglass cover, bed liner, tailgate, spare. 1/4 tank
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
16:43:52
| RE: throttle body or m1
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The bigger valve doesn't seem to hurt anything, it's the larger intake runner volume 180cc vs 153cc which is around 18% greater. So both the 1.92/1.97 or 2.02 wouldn't of differ on the R/T head.
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R/T Superbee
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
16:58:09
| RE: throttle body or m1
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I have a Durango R/T 5.9, with JBA headers & Cat back, K&N gen II cold air, Jet stage II chip, 1.7 RR's & MSD 6A. I live in Tahoe @ 6,500 ft & truck runs strong, at sea level really strong. I do not want a Drag Truck, I drive it every day but I would like it quicker from idle to about 4,500 rpm. I was thinking about doing some more mods, like new TB and maby M1, 1.92 heads & maby a cam. Remember I want this to be a fast every day driver so what do you think?
TB Yes/No
M1 Yes/No
Cam Yes/No
Heads Yes/No
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/05/2002
17:04:30
| RE: throttle body or m1
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put some 4.56 gears in it!!!! you will have GOBS of torque, and the RPM's dont go up THAT much on the freeway because of the tall OD gear in the tranny.
~Eric
superdupercharged, M-1, 1.7 RR's, 52mm TB, ceramic headers, 3" carsound cat, and gibson muffler
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
17:20:39
| RE: throttle body or m1
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So your trying to say a larger valve won't change anything as far as power or loss of torque?? BS!! Everything else being equal, a larger valve will let in more air more quickly with less velocity which is where you get your loss of torque. Feeling stronger off the line does not mean it's making more power. I can make a v-6 with a manual tranny feel stronger off the line than my R/T ever did, but that doesn't mean the V-6 is making more power. Have you dynoed your set ups?? Without a dyno proof showing where your power bands actually were or where your engine was actually putting out power, you don't know which set up "works" better. Deisels have a lot of off the line power, but aren't well known for winning races. I'm just sying, the mods you have done are the best options you could have selected to get what you want. And you said yourself you coudl care less about 1/4 times, so posting your timeslips shows nothing.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
17:22:00
| RE: throttle body or m1
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I would suggest good cam like the KRC206 with the .480/.512 lift. It will even work with your 1.7RR. I forgot the correct numbers but I think the rockers bumb it up to .512/.543 lift.
TB/YES I SAW A NICE INCREASE OF THE LINE POWER.
MY FIRST MOD.
CAM/YES OYEA, NICE INCREASE
M1/NO I STILL THINK IT DESIGN WAS FOR 3000-7000
HEADS/YES PORTING YOU CURRENT HEADS MIGHT BE YOUR BEST BET. Have them flow best @.500 lift to .550 :) Throw on some stronger springs while you have them off.
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R/T Superbee
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
17:25:31
|  RE: throttle body or m1
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That is what Dodge said but I was trying to avoid the $3,000.00. What does AnthonyG think
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
17:39:12
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Valve size helps determine how much the heads flow at different lifts, saying the intake ports can supply enough air.
So no I didn't spend $60 for three runs everything time I changed out an part. I rather spend that on other things.
If you want to defend the M1, fine but I don't think it's the best darn intake for this engine or my setup. Have you looked at Single plane manifolds lately? (M1=Singel Plane) I bet almost all of them will say Works best for high performance street, drag, oval track, requires at least 9.5:1CR, headers, cam, 280degree cam minimum stall speed 3000rpm. With more starting at 3000-7000 some even to 8000 even 9000k rpms while most dual plan like the stock intake will say idle to 5, some 6k and one or two will get up to 7k.
I know how my truck runs, I know it runs better with the stock intake. So until you have tried those setups with my truck I don't think you can tell me which is better.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
17:42:33
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Gears are nice, but if you have a 4x4 then you might be needing two sets of gears, if you can get them.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
17:51:18
| RE: throttle body or m1
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I'm just about to get off work, I'll take you guy's later. Hey it's just my opinion, I say would I see. But if that hurts people feelings with M1 or hurts your sales of them. THen sorry, but that's what I've noticed with my setup.
Later
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
17:53:11
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Doh,
I'm just about to get off work, I'll talk with you guy's later. Hey it's just my opinion, I say what I see. But if that hurts people feelings with M1 or hurts it's sales of them. Then sorry, but that's what I've noticed with my setup.
Later
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
18:04:59
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Yes, valve size will effect how much the head flows at different lifts, but a 2.02 valve will flow more than a 1.92 valve at the same degree of lift. So saying the valve size has no difference on the R/T heads because the intake runner is the same for each is a false claim. Might as well say a 52MM TB flows as much as a 50mm TB because the TB hat is the same size.
Actually, the 2bbl M1 is designed for 2500-6000RPM, and street use. Just trying to make sure we are talkng about the same M1, because the 4bbl M1 is way overkill for any n/a vehicle, and even some forced induction apps. The 2bbl M1 is a good manifold, I gained 20peak hp on my truck, and lost no low end at all. Now when I did the heads, I lost low end power. We aren't talking race manifolds that you will find at Summitt or Jegs for older Mopars or SBC/SBF applications.
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R/T Superbee
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
23:27:47
| RE: throttle body or m1
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I've decided. F==k the M1. I drive, I don't race, I want the power at take off, not at 80 mph. You get tickets over 75 anyway, and just in case I get pulled over I want to be able to take off quick.
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Josh
Dodge Dakota
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12/05/2002
23:40:37
| RE: throttle body or m1
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I Was just looking around for my christmas wish list and I too wonderd about a M1 intake...? What all do you need for this to work properly? I bought my R/t form dallas used have nto got to run it down drag yet but it has Headers,dual flow turndown,cold-air intake,throttle body spacer and come kind of performance chip in it... I ran it to 120 and it never shut off... I also just am about to order a Hypertech reprogrammer but please give me opions and A price on this M1 intake manifold any help is appriciated thanks!
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DeepDak
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
00:02:56
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Guys,
When looking through a Mopar Parts Catalog a few days ago I thought I read that the 4bbl M1 is a single plane and the 2bbl M1 is a dual. If this is the case, then Anthony and HSKR are comparing different manifolds.
Eli
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
00:07:14
| RE: throttle body or m1
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When talking about the MPI M1 intakes, both the 2bbl and 4bbl are single plane, but the 4bbl and 2bbl are different intakes. The 4bbl M1 is rated 3000RPM-7000RPM, the 2bbl is rated 2500 RPM-6000RPM.
Josh, what year is your truck?? If you took it over 120, then it might have the Mopar PCM in it and the Hypertech won't do you any good and might even decrease performance. ALso, get rid of the TB spacer. It's useless and has shown to decrease some performance. The 2bbl M1 is about $400 with install kit.
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rtxpres
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
02:51:44
| RE: throttle body or m1
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Maybe this will help clear up some common mis-conceptions of the various multi-port-injection manifolds. This is from the MP Magnum Engines book, 2nd edition.
RPM range:
Stock beer barrel intake = idle-5500
Single plane M1 2 bbl = 2000-5800
Single plane M1 4 bbl = 2600-6000
With the M1 you will lose that surge you usually feel around 3000 rpm but you will still be accelerating faster. Though I'm happy with my M1 I wouldn't recommend it to those who don't have the desire or ability to rev beyond 5500. IMHO, it's too expensive for just the small gains down low.
'92 318 - 13.74 @ 99.88
http://www.dragtruk.com/ENTRIES/20KM1FD2KWBP.html
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Josh
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2002
08:32:57
| RE: throttle body or m1
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My truck is a 99 model... the biggest thing I wanted hypertech for was because it has a big delay when you get on it... and it does not take off good at all in od or ud for the most part...my friend has a 00 model R/t reg cab and he smokes the hell outta me... I just was trying to get some input to make my truck quicker...?? Thanks again
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rtdkota
R/T
12/06/2002
09:00:54
| RE: throttle body or m1
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rtxpres-- what part of the country do you live???
If close to so cal-- you gotta go for a ride in my truck-- Peak hp at 5450 rpm... M1-4bbl... Guess I got a freak setup that works. HE.
Sam
RTDKOTA
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