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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/23/2002
21:23:58
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 Subject: The M1 experience
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While waiting for my 1.7 rockers to arrive, I started doing some homework on the 2bbl M1 intake for my 5.2. I have read as many posts as I can about it, but it just isn't getting me anywhere. What I have come up with, is that from 3200rpm to WAY over my 5300 shift point has major gains. I also know that everything under 3000rpm goes to crap. My question is, to what degree of crappiness will I experience under 3000rpm?
I used to do a lot of 1/4 mile dragracing in South Carolina before I moved to Indiana earlier this year. I have always had a problem with hooking up, so I know that slow starts KILL you. I always seemed to "catch up", but starting out in front occasionally would be nice. Now, here in Indiana, the only strip close is an 1/8th mile, and yes, I do usually end up in the occasional street race. So, I figure, I need all the low end I can get for the short distances, as my racing MPH will be limited to around 80mph (maybe a bit less on the street).
Now, knowing my scenario, I would be grateful to hear the real deal about the M1. What have your experiences been with it? How much low end did you actually lose? How have you compensated for the loss?(cam?) I have read so many posts about it, and all I got is that there is some low end torque loss. Even all of the dyno runs I have found all start at 3000rpm+, not showing anything under 3k.
I appreciate any input you can provide me. Right now, I have all but talked myself out of buying the M1. I might just yank the beer barrel off and start grinding. Let me know what you think!
92 RC Sport 5.2 3.55 Auto
Mod'ed TB and intake, Flowmasters, 180 tstat
MOPAR PCM, MSD 6AL, other :)
13.93 @ 98mph
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DaveR
GenII
11/23/2002
22:51:02
|  RE: The M1 experience
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If you like I can send you a dyno sheet or two I had dome shortly after the M1.
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/23/2002
23:04:03
| RE: The M1 experience
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That would be great! Send them HERE if its not too much trouble. Do you notice much low end loss?
Thanks
cryppie
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rtxpres
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
01:27:34
| RE: The M1 experience
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Hey cryppie, I think you should grind away on your beer barrel. Considering your current performance numbers you'll probably be in the 12s before you even get it bolted back on.:-)
http://www.dragtruk.com/ENTRIES/20KM1FD2KWBP.html
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rpkast
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
02:28:44
| RE: The M1 experience
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For what it's worth here are some dyno
numbers comparing gain/loss of my M1 2bbl.
Dyno sheet for the M1 started at 2800 rpm's.
So I couldn't compare anything below that.
Bob
`99 5,2 Dakota
rpkast@earthlink.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rpkast/images/
DynoM1.jpg
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rpkast
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
02:33:49
| RE: The M1 experience
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Message:
Make that 3,200 rpm's
Sorry!!!!
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ticats
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
07:23:31
| RE: The M1 experience
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cryppie
I have the MPI 4bbl. I have also read that you lose a lot of lowend with the M1. That has not been my experience. I do not have pre- and post-dyno. numbers with the MPI (would not be too realistic anyways as chasis dynos. cannot accurate measure down low in the rpm band).
At the track with the MPI, I was within a few hundreds of the best 60' time that I had with the stock intake. At that time, the truck had 3.55 SG,
26" drag radials and weighed 4,350lb. The MPI did move peak hp up to 5000rpm from about 4500 rpm so I put in 3.92 gears so I would cross the stripe close to 5000rpm from the previous 4500 or so rpm.
ticats
'97 Dak CC Sport, 5.2L, 44RE, 3.92SG, 14.313@95.92, race weight (truck, driver, 3/8 tank) = 4,080lb.
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Aaro
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
09:53:30
| RE: The M1 experience
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I have a '97 , 5.2 auto with headers ,cat back , TB , K&N gen II ,1.7 RR , PCM , and more.I ground the heck out of a beer keg and it was alot of work for very small gains.I used a manifold from a R/T that has no center diveder and cut the runners 2 1/2" cleaned and opened the runners & ports. It feels like I lost power from idle-2000 rpm at part throttle and gained 4 or 5 hp from 3500-4500 rpm but it still can't breath above 4500 rpm. My advice would be to go with the 2bbl M1 with a large turtle .I have a M1 sitting on the shelf awaiting install , I will post after the install.
P.S.
Cryppie , are your 1/4 mile time from a G-Tech or from the track ,They seem a bit low but I found that I can run alot faster on a cool day when I don't have to sit for a long stage. My best G-Tech times are .7 sec faster than my best track times
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
12:44:02
| RE: The M1 experience
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DaveR -
Still waiting for those numbers!
rtxpres -
Nice truck! Looking at your timeslips I can tell that you do a lot of "catching up" also. Probably pass everyone just after the 1/8th mile mark like I do!
rpkast -
I came across those numbers previously while searching for info on the M1. To tell you the truth, those numbers are the #1 reason I have just about talked myself out of buying one. The -30hp and -50ft/lbs torque at 3200rpm spooked me, so I'd like to see the rest of the numbers under 3200rpm. If everything under 3200rpm is that bad, I'd probably lose at least 1-2 seconds off my 0-60 times on the street. I know that the main numbers taken from a dyno are usually from 2nd gear, but, when I dyno'd my motorcycle, there was also a 1st-6th gear measurement taken. Do they do 1st-3rd maybe? Or even if they started at idle in 2nd would be nice.
ticats -
You wouldn't happen to have a pre and post M1 install timeslip would you? That would give me what I need I think. I am also running a 3.55 with 28" tires. I plan to drop to 26" tires if I go with the M1. Are you still running the 26" with the 3.92? I haven't lowered my gearing because I cross the traps in 3rd right around 5000rpm/100mph. Any lower gearing and I'll have to use my OD.
Aaro -
Thanks for the info about the beer keg, I was afraid of that. I learned the hard way also after spending about 8 hours on my throttle body and then seeing minimal gains. Live and learn I guess. Might just need to buy the M1 and try it out myself, but I'm pretty sure it isn't for me. The 1/4 mile times are from my timeslips at the track. They seem low to you? I thought 13's in a sleeper was good, considering most camaro's, corvettes, and mustangs I have run never made it under 14. I can put the slips on a site if you'd like to see them. I have a few scanned and labeled as to what I was racing at the time. I don't have a G-Tech, but I do have a nice stretch of road marked off if I need it ; )
cryppie
92 RC Sport 5.2 3.55 Auto
13.93 @ 98mph
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DaveR
GenII
11/24/2002
13:31:45
| RE: The M1 experience
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You have mail finaly. School is a busy place. Anyway, you can see the mods I have in my profile and those pulls were done with 90K on the motor.
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Aaro
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
13:32:03
| RE: The M1 experience
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By low I meant it was a bit faster than I expected to see. From your listed mods I would think mid 14's , 13.9 is great!!!I wish I could run that fast at RT.66 but the 10+ min stage causes me to get heat soaked. I would be interested in a complete list of mods and tire size. My work on the intake netted no gains on 1/4-mile times. My ported 50mm TB really helped, I am surprised that you had small gains from the throttle body.
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
16:22:32
| RE: The M1 experience
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Message:
Thanks Dave, got it! Doesn't look too bad!
Aaro, I'll throw those slips on a site now. I'll also work on a list of mods and put them up on the same page later.
They will be at http://webpages.charter.net/mypage/
Also, DaveR, if you'd like, I can also put a link to the dyno sheets you sent, so others reading this post that are also considering the M1 can see them too. Let me know!
cryppie
92 RC Sport 5.2 3.55 Auto
13.93 @ 98mph
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ticats
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
16:22:43
| RE: The M1 experience
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Message:
cryppie
I'm still running with the 26" BFG drag radials and 3.92 gears. Depending on track conditions, I'll cross the line anywhere from 5000 to 5300 rpms. I've beefed my valvetrain components so I can run up to about 6000 rpms or so without valve float. That's about where the rev limiter is with my MP PCM.
Prior to installing the MPI 4bbl, my best ET was 14.91 and, if I remember correctly, the trap speed was just over 90 mph (let me know if you need the trap speed and I'll look for the slip). After the installing the MPI (and with a 3000 stall converter), I ran consecutive runs of 14.381 @ 94.75 and 14.313 @ 95.05 (one of the rare times that the track and weather conditions were near perfect for my region of Ont.).
One really needs to be able to shift and run in the high 5000 rpm range to get the full benefits of the MPI intake.
HTH.
ticats
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
18:00:07
| RE: The M1 experience
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Message:
Got the slips and the mods posted at the site I listed earlier.
ticats,
If you can find the slips, I would be most interested in your 1/8th mile time/mph differences. With that gear/tire combo, you are running about a 4.16 ratio, which probably helps out a lot! Also, how is that 3000 stall on the street?
cryppie
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aaro
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
18:23:27
|  RE: The M1 experience
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Custom head work ,that must be " other :) " in your list of mods from the first post, cool & thanks for the info.
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DaveR
GenII
11/24/2002
19:49:10
| RE: The M1 experience
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Feel free to put my sheets up and link them, I'm not shy :)
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
20:55:30
| RE: The M1 experience
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Sorry about the 3 slips out of 4 not showing up. Problem has been fixed.
DaveR, I still haven't put up your dyno sheets, I will do that in a minute.
Anyone else have any M1 info to add? Preferably the 5.2 auto guys. How has it worked for you? Also, the turtle owners; did it help your lower rpm's, and if so, how much? And ticats, how is that 3000 stall on the street?
cryppie
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ticats
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
21:44:18
| RE: The M1 experience
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You do not know that it is even there unless you mash the pedal, then it will flash to around the 3000 rpm mark. It's a design from SMR Transmissions in Ont., Canada. The owner, Pat Storey, is a racer of a '97 hemi Dakota (originally a 3.9L bought from a dealer) who runs in Super Stock.
ticats
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2002
23:04:59
| RE: The M1 experience
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Picked up .3 in the 1/4 with M1 2brl and sm. turtle. No loss of low end. Can break tires lose where I wasnt able to before. Pulls hard all the way to redline. 1st time attempt , 8hrs to install , start-finish. Took PCM 100 miles or so to "learn"
99 R/T
52 mm TB
Mopar headers
Gibson 3" sngl
catco cat
K&N FIPK
MP PCM
180 stat
Roe racing controller
and M1 2 barrel !
14.83 @ 93.3 ......... 2.17 60` on MT ET streets
still too slow.
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rpkast
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
11/25/2002
00:23:09
| RE: The M1 experience
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Message:
cryppie, Dyno numbers may show a loss on
the bottom end, but my `60 ft. times stayed
about the same if not slightly better.
Before the M1, 2.159 `60ft
With M1, 2.140 `60ft.
Daily driving I've felt no loss of low end power.
Wish I had low end numbers also. Not 100%
sure but, I believe my dyno was from 1st to
3rd.
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BIGTYMER
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2002
09:22:25
| RE: The M1 experience
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Message:
OK, those of you that have the M1, I noticed only one of you mentioned the turtle and said that it was a small turtle... Which turtles are you running and what difference did it make?
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2002
12:02:37
| RE: The M1 experience
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I have the 2bbl M1 and large turtle. I didn't notice any difference with the small turtle, but the large turtle was a definite seat of the pants increase in off the line torque. If you get a 2bbl M1, definitly try to get a turtle for it. My 1/4 times dropped .3 with the M1. I have a nice graph showing dyno improvements with the M1that startes at 3600RPM, but no way of posting it here. I gained 20peak hp, and picked up 40hp over the beer barrel at 5000RPM. Torque numbers showed an overall loss, but from 3500RPM+ the torque showed the same increase over the beer barrel as the horse power did. On the street, no noticeable difference when racing. Maybe not quite as quick off the line, but I was able to go from keeping up with a Z-28 to 40mph before he pased me to keeping in front of the Z-28 the whole race(on the street)
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DeepDak
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2002
12:34:30
| RE: The M1 experience
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HSKR,
Do you think the large turle hurt your top end any? It would be sweet to gain low end without lossing some top.
Eli
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2002
15:18:22
| RE: The M1 experience
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If it did it was un-noticable. Might have hurt it a little above 5500RPM, but I rarely ever saw that high. Getting off the line was more important.
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2002
20:54:12
| RE: The M1 experience
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Message:
Thank all of you for the info on the M1. I can't say it helped me much, though. I mean, the info was great and I appreciate it, but I am still not sure whether I should do it or not. For now, I think I'll get the 1.7 RR's on and wait on the M1, unless someone talks me into it. I need to figure out how I'm going to raise my compression a bit to make up for the low end loss. But, if I do decide to do the M1, it would give me a good excuse to finally get a torque converter!
cryppie
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kc8lbn
GenII
11/25/2002
21:35:07
| RE: The M1 experience
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I too would like to be convinced that the M1 is the way to go, I have just experienced a belly pan gasket blowout, and would rather replace the manifold with the M1. My concerns are: My truck is a 4x4 and I use it, I am in need of torque instead of high end. Would the M1 with the large turtle be the way to go????
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2002
22:00:51
| RE: The M1 experience
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I think the best way to get low end torque is change the gear. 4.10 4.56
Remember how much low end torque your 10 speed had in 1st gear ?
just a thought.
If you tow , maybe no M1. But I see you like the track so I would get one. If you get the M1 2brl , lg. turtle , 2400 stall I bet you come close to taking off .5 sec ET. with still plenty of low end snap.
The M1 will help the breathing when you decide to get a set of heads. (wink wink) I know you will.
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BIGTYMER
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2002
22:12:03
| RE: The M1 experience
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M1, large turtle, 2400 stall should give more than a .5 off the ET since a few that I've heard from said just the converter did .6 off the 0-60 times...
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cryppie
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2002
01:37:04
| RE: The M1 experience
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Ok... Do the tstat and TB gaskets come with the install kit? Yeah, you know where this is going ;). I can see it now this is gonna cost me. I'll just HAVE to have the 3.92 rear and 2400 stall TC next. I'll look around for a dyno tomorrow, maybe get some numbers for everyone.
cryppie
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big_torque
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2002
07:45:44
| RE: The M1 experience
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The tstat and TB gasket dont come in the kit. Tstat is maybe $5 - $10 and I just reused my TB gasket.
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Troy
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2002
12:08:15
| RE: The M1 experience
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Yeah, you can reuse the tb gasket if it isn't ripped. Those of you wanting to maintain the low-end, get the x-large turtle that is available right now. Jeff sold the dies and made a batch of large and x-large turtles, but I don't know how long he will have them before there all gone. I replaced the large with the x-large and love it. Really helps on the low-end. Improved my 0-60 and 1/4 times. Sold the large one on ebay. Hope this helps.
2000 QC Sport Plus 4x4 5.9L 3.92LS (9.25 axle), every factory option
Magnaflow 3" single in/ 2-1/2" dual out
Kenne Bell equal-length headers with 2-1/2" y-pipe
NGK ZFR6F-11 plugs, indexed
Kenne Bell (Taylor) wires
Borg-Warner brass cap/ rotor
180 stat
Redline Water Wetter and Pro-Blend 40 below radiator additive
S-bolt
Homemade 4" cold-air induction
Baffle removed from air hat
paper air filter (sold K&N, awaiting airbox install)
Mobil 1 in engine, both axles, and transfer case
Map sensor mod
clutch fan removed (electric fan on thermal switch)
M1 two-barrel non-EGR intake manifold (new casting) w/ extra-large turtle
Fuel rail spacers shortened app. 3/32"-1/8"
APS 50mm throttle body
Hypertech Power Programmer III
Transgo shift kit and Amsoil (not yet installed)
GTS functional Ram-Air hood w/ 14" open element (not yet installed)
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