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NYSubDak
Dodge Dakota
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8/05/2002
00:13:03
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 Subject: Speedtweaks turbo update
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I can't believe it, none of you noticed that Bend updated the turbo project last night? Sounds like when they fix that bypass problem, that truck will be every bit the ripper they expected! Imagine what the other mods (exhaust, head-work, etc.) will do with 400hp as a starting point!
Wade
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born2steel21
GenIII
 
8/05/2002
00:33:27
|  RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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very sweet and at 5# of boost, instead of 7-8#...wonder what the 1/4 times will be?
-- Death Before Dismount --
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NoDak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/05/2002
01:48:05
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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yah, OK, whatever.....
14.50@95.5mph?
281RWHP / 381 RWTQ
all that for $5500?
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Turboguy
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/05/2002
08:23:44
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Yeah, not for nothing, but if Speedtweaks wants to sell any of those kits they better come up with better #s. On motor alone Im making 235 hp to the wheels. I could spray the truck (about $5gs cheaper) and be just as reliable and make the same hp!
Incon twin turbo setups literally transform every application into "supercar" status.
My buddies twin turbo trans am will pull motorcycles from a 70mph roll on till 130! I see no reason why this Dak application cant perform as well. Money is waiting to be spent. I just need to see some concrete results.
For $5k, my motorcycle can go 225mph.
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CW
GenIII
8/05/2002
10:02:57
|  RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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These are first dyno numbers. What do you expect? They are not making the boost and the truck is pretty much dead stock.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
8/05/2002
10:55:37
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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That's the problem with these guys who think they know about turbos. When you first run it up on the dyno (first baseline run), it's not going to produce anything numbers wise like what the final product will. There's a company that just released the turbo kit for the 2.5L Duratec Ford motors (single turbo), and it's initial run up was 265 FWHP, but they're up over 300 FWHP AND at a lower overall boost once they started the fuel tuning. Have patience. That twin turbo system will easily produce 500 crank HP once it is tuned properly.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
8/05/2002
11:24:03
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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considering a stock rt in favorable conditions dynos at about 190-200 rwhp... i think that 281 is wonderful in 90+ temps. Just remember people... that is with the stock exhaust. Remove the cat, add a high flow 3" exhaust and i bet it would add around 30 rwhp to it. Just give it some time and it will be a lot better
intensedak3.9
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Turboguy
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/05/2002
12:55:05
|  RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Demon, I suspect youre referring to me?
Well I happen to know something about turbos.
FWIW, I could give 2 sh*ts and a broken chair about "crank hp". I want rearwheel dyno hp. Thats a REAL WORLD #. I wanna see 1/4 times and speeds. THATS A REAL WORLD #.
At 5lbs of boost I would think the hp would be higher.
And shame on them if they (Speedtweaks) think that you can get away with the puny stock exhaust. This should be taken into account during project design. A turbo setup needs to be free flowing in order to reap the full benefits. How much could 15ft of 3" pipe add to the cost?$150? $200.
I have a hard time believing there is another 120 horse in the setup without spending a couple of grand over the cost of the kit. (i.e. Heads, intake,cams, etc.)
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Intensedak39
*GenIII*
8/05/2002
13:23:13
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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they used the stock exhaust to see what the numbers would be on a stock motor... or at least thats what bernd talked to me about. I am sure that they will add an exhuast to match that tt setup and run more numbers.
intensedak3.9
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CW
GenIII
8/05/2002
13:29:05
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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I think the biggest reason they used a stock motor was to be able to compare it to the supercharger kits out there right now.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/05/2002
13:35:55
|  It's all PERCENTAGES!
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Performance increase from boost is all about percentages. If you are starting out with a stock 5.9 engine, you generally get about 200rwhp.
From a stock baseline of 200hp you get:
3spi boost = 121% = 242rwhp
4psi boost = 128% = 256rwhp
5psi boost = 135% = 270rwhp
6spi boost = 142% = 284rwhp
7psi boost = 150% = 300rwhp
8spi boost = 157% = 314rwhp
9spi boost = 164% = 328rwhp
10psi boost = 171% = 342rwhp
11psi boost = 178% = 356rwhp
12psi boost = 185% = 370rwhp
13psi boost = 193% = 386rwhp
14psi boost = 200% = 400rwhp
All of the above numbers are based upon a good "tune". I chose 200rwhp as a baseline to make the math easier.... if you start with more or less then - you can do the math. Generally, changes that will improve performance when NA will improve the numbers with a turbo. For instance: if you added the higher flowing exhaust that would improve numbers by 15 hp when NA - that would equate to no less than a 30 hp improvement at 14psi if not more. The same thing applies to heads, cams, TBs.
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joel
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/05/2002
15:07:18
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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What octane are you running & how much timing?
What was the 60' in that run?
Joel
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
8/05/2002
15:19:01
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Turboguy,
As a matter of fact, I was talking about NoDak. And 500 Crank HP is approx 400 RWHP, so either way it's the same thing. I'll call you out if I think you're full of it. You just mis-read my previous post is all.
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Tom Slick
GenII
8/05/2002
16:01:26
|  RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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I designed the twin-turbo system in R/T-2, and I would like to explain a few things...
We installed the system on a stock motor with stock exhaust, to see what power it produced as compared to superchargers currently out on the market.
At only 5psi boost(and ambient temp at the dyno was 106), the twin-turbo truck produced 35 more RWHP and 40 more RWTQ that a Vortech running 5-6psi boost (and did it with taller than stock tires, bring the Rear end gear ratio to 3.60 from 3.92; and using 93 octane pump gas) Plus, the HP and torque curves were much flatter and broader than what you would get with a supercharger. check out a few dyno graphs and see for yourself.
This was the very first dyno testing done, and as with any prototype system there are bugs and issues to be worked out.
The system was designed to produce a lot more than just 5psi boost, and unlike a supercharger can be adjust by turning a "Variable Boost Control Regulator" (of which we have on the way for R/T-2).
Later!
Tom "Slick"
96 Dakota Sport 5.2 RC SB
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kota on 20s
GenIII
8/05/2002
17:43:05
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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i heard the kit was going to be $6100!! is that true tom?
Eric, 98 5.2 5speed, K&N gen II, 50mm TB, 2bbl M-1, 1.7RR's, JBA ciramic headers, carsound cat, dumped gibson, and a lot more
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Tom Slick
GenII
8/05/2002
23:12:25
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Kota - Actually it is looking to cost a little more than that, but you are also talking about a very complete system. We are looking to find ways to reduce the price without reducing the quality of the system.
Later!
Tom "Slick"
96 Dakota Sport 5.2 RC SB
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someone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/06/2002
01:40:53
|  RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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for all you guys having an adult conversation about this subject, good deal. As for for this tubo guy that is going to get hees twinn tubov8 gwand nationo and smoke all you guys. Just ignore this guy. it's clear that he or she or, whatever is a legend in his or her mind.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
8/06/2002
02:18:59
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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HOLLY MOLY!! i hope we have some lotto winers in the house
Eric, 98 5.2 5speed, K&N gen II, 50mm TB, 2bbl M-1, 1.7RR's, JBA ciramic headers, carsound cat, dumped gibson, and a lot more
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Turboguy
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/06/2002
06:28:24
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Message:
Someone, keep you trap shut if you have nothing intelligent to say. I think its pretty pathetic that a 1987 V6 makes more hp and torque than a 2000+ V8 with 2 turbos!
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Turboguy
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/06/2002
06:40:44
|  RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Uh Tom, with a price of $6100 or more, it damned well better be complete and make big hp. Aside from your R&D costs, I cant see how you have even close to $4k into the project costs?
Quick breakdown of the costs.
-2 turbos = $1400
-Water to air intercooler = $600
-Fuel pump= $150
-Header fab $800(tops)
-Assorted turbo plumbing $350
-Battery box $75
-Assorted lines $200
-Air hat $200
How is it that other companies can make twin turbo systems that put out far more hp and cost $1500 less?
Im in the wrong business!
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
8/06/2002
09:40:07
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Turboguy,
i can asure you that it has cost much more than 4 grand. I have been down there a couple of times and seen some of the stuff that is in the kit. I know that the battery box alone cost over $100 compared to your $75. Considering most of the hardware has been ceramic coated and such... it is gonna be expensive. Plus if this kit only cost... lets say $5000 to make (i dont know the final production price)... dont you think that they are gonna wanna make a profit on this? Think of it this way... i have a flowmaster 40 series muffler... i payed $65 for it. Probably cost the place i purchased it from $40. Now it probably only cost Flowmaster $15 to actually make it.... Bernd has to pay the person to make the headers, down pipes, crossover pipe, and such... and pay a little more than the cost price for all the hardware because everybody has to make their share. The only way to really drive down the cost a lot is for bernd and tom to start production of every part in there shop... but that isnt possible so the price is gonna be relatively high.
intensedak3.9
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Bernd
*GenIII*
8/06/2002
10:43:24
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Message:
Turboguy: There's more to the kit than meets the eye. You're forgetting the heat exchangers, fans, coolant pump, resevoir, ceramic coating (turbo coating and regular coating), downpipes, Delta-gates, all grade-8 hardware, intercooler bracket, R&D costs, Adjustable FMU, timing controller, insulation, injectors, and throttle body (optional)...and of course profit to pay the overhead.
Everyone seems to be critisizing the kit already...keep in mind that this is just the FIRST run for tuning and "let's see where we're at" figures. It's not putting out as much as it should, and there's still plenty of tuning to get the figures.
As for your intercooler price...that's too low for the intercooler we're using. Remember, it's a custom fit intercooler...not an "off the shelf" unit.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Chipster
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/06/2002
11:59:11
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Message:
Bernd & Tom, Don't be distracted by these
negative, so called informed people. If you
don't make a profit, you can't stay in business.
Thank you for sharing with us your sorting
things out process. The majority of us on the
board appreciate it. Especially us 4.7 guys, we
have been waiting for hi performance parts for
years now. This is a good step in the right
direction.
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Tom Slick
GenII
8/06/2002
12:30:51
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Message:
Thanks, Chipster!
While I do understand that the estimated cost of the kit seems a little pricey, remember that this is a total package, requiring nothing else to make it work properly.
Our kit is actually reasonable priced for what all you get. Some companies can produce turbo kits for less(like for Mustangs), but they also produce a large volume of them, and there are a lot more of those vehicles out on the road. We are in a "Niche" market with a lot less vehicles out on the road than some of those other companies.
Just how reasonable is our system going to be priced? Take a look at a few examples:
The Bell Engineering Mazda Miata single turbo kits are $4800... http://www.bellengineering.net/miataindex.html
The Cartech twin-turbo kit for the Acura NSX is $9300...
http://www.cartech.net/nsx.html
The Cartech BMW M3 Intercooled Turbocharger System is $8995...
http://www.cartech.net/BMWM3Turbo.html
Scitech Enterprises custom turbo systems start at $7000...
Remember, these are also niche vehicles without the volume of vehicles as Mustangs and some imports!
Thanks!
Tom "Slick"
96 Dakota Sport 5.2 RC SB
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Turboguy
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/06/2002
12:32:09
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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IntenseDak39
I raise these questions because the average *enthusiest* with some knowledge can create a decent kit for $6k.
Tell me how hard it is to make a header to someone who produces them all day long? I already posted the cost from a fabricator I know who can make them for me.
Tell me how much a pair of turbos cost? I just posted the approximate costs.
Personally Id go to a 409 motor, before spending $6k+ on a kit thats unproven.
FWIW, the coatings, all sales BS aside, have never show to substansially reduce operating temps.
Personally I dont see how they are going to get another 120+ horse out of the kit without spending a couple of grand extra on heads, intake,and cams.
Buy Im hear waiting. Maybe the rest of you *consumers* wanna wait around for someone to dry hump you hard, but not me. Ill be going fast without the kit or not.
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yates-in-DE
GenIII
8/06/2002
12:47:33
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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BernD + Tom,
Just keep workin' it bruder. Those that think it is overpriced for the performance gains can go by a Lightnin'. (Dodge Dakota 4.7L = $23,000 + Twin Turbo Kit $6,200 = $29,200 Ford Lightnin' $35,000 + options Both trucks thru 1/4 in 12.6 Sec, Look on Lightnin' owners Face Priceless)
Later,
My VW Killer
Lynn
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Tom Slick
GenII
8/06/2002
12:50:38
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Its not just headers... it's also downpipes, which include piping for the wastegates... header fab costs don't include the downpipes or any of the materials(mandrel bend tubing and flanges) needed to build the headers AND downpipes.
As for the 120+hp comment, we are already producing 90RWHP at only 5psi boost... do the math...
Turboguy - if you can do it cheaper and better, then I say go for it...nothing wrong with a little competition!
Thanks!
Tom "Slick"
96 Dakota Sport 5.2 RC SB
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Turboguy
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/06/2002
13:45:24
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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Tom , my comments are not a *dig* at the kit, but the cost I should expect double the hp on pump gas.
As for the 120hp comment....I was talking about 120 MORE hp from where the kit baselined at.
Do you think the setup is capable of 400 rwhp without going to heads, intakes, and a cam on pump gas?
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auSS/Tin
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
8/06/2002
13:45:43
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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I live in Austin and have had my SS/T next to RT2 and have seen the time, effort, money, and devotion that Tom and Bernd have put into their project. They will get the numbers where they should be, give them some time. Also, twin turbo will have a very unique quality to it. That uniqueness will cost some money. Just my .02 worth.
Later
Bill
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
8/06/2002
14:36:44
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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TurboGuy,
i dont think the average enthusiest goes around creating turbo kits. From what i have seen only two people have built turbo kits..... Duner and Speedtweaks... now i consider myself an *above average* enthusiest but i havent built a turbo kit... yet. I understand what you're saying but with Speedteaks kit you dont have to do anything but bolt stuff on. You dont have to worry about headers and all that stuff. I am not trying to insult you or anything. If i had the money i would rather have someone else build one for me. I have purchased a turbo for $100 and got some bigger fuel injectors. I can buy some pipe and build my own headers probably for less than $75. Add some more pipe for the y-pipe and induction... a bigger fuel pump ($175) and i would be in business. But the fact is i am too lazy right now to build headers today. Maybe tomorrow. Now with all those expenses i bet i could come up with a turbo kit for less than $500 - single turbo of course. Now look at those prices of those turbo kits they posted earlier... $6000+ seems fair... but trust me... i would rather have a carbuerated 360 with a big blower on top that shakes the skirts off the ladies... but thats just me.
intensedak3.9
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kota on 20s
GenIII
8/06/2002
19:43:12
| RE: Speedtweaks turbo update
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bernd and tom, dont think this is a flame, or a diss on your project, because its not.
tell me why one should buy this kit, when they can get a (also complete) kit from paxton for 2 thousand dollers cheaper? i know turbo's make slightly more power, but for 2k you can buy a lot of parts that will make up the diff in power and then sum... or save it and buy a bigscrene TV...lol
Eric, 98 5.2 5speed, K&N gen II, 50mm TB, 2bbl M-1, 1.7RR's, JBA ciramic headers, carsound cat, dumped gibson, and a lot more
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