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DucBoy
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
14:48:46
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 Subject: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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OK,
I have seen a lot of good things with the 70mm Billet Flometrics TB's out there. What I am really wondering is how mu added HP do you get for the $400 and the extra $$ to swap out the 3" Z tube I have with the 4" Z tube to it will fit properly. Intense Performance will give me a $75 credit to run in the 3" for the 4" and keep my current 9" big mouth. I am just looking for hard HP numbers for my $600.
2000 CC Sport 32x11.50's Gibson Cat Back 3" Z tube
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Clevite 77
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
16:29:14
|  RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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can you buy just the 4" z tube? how much was the kit?
If you don't want to spend $400 (which I think is completely understandable) buy a 71mm from fasman it's a true 71mm (or you can go with the 68mm) but for $200 and your core you get a stock that's bored out, polished and a thinner, bigger throttle plate is added. Not to mention no problems with high idle, no vibrations and the dealer can't say anything unless they inspect it.
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j
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
17:04:34
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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If you go to the F&B website: www.socaldakota.com,
I think they have some dyno graphs to show the numbers.
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DucBoy
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
17:06:27
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Does the fastman also require a new 4" Z tube or can it use the 3" I already have? Not sure Intense just told me they would credit $75 for the 4" tube directly through them.
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D
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
19:24:49
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
so if I send fastman my 68mm core, they will
port it to 71mm and put a bigger throttle plate
for $200?
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DucBoy
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
21:06:21
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
I just got a message back from fastman:
I do not have HP #'s for the 4.7. I have sold a lot of my modified 4.7
TB's and have had excellent results. Especially the 2000 4.7 which has
a very small bore and really likes the bigger TB. I worked the bore
sizes up and watched the results carefully through the years to what I
have today. I sell what works. I have sized my TB's to give a good mix
of lowend torque and Topend HP.
Bore sizes: If you look at you stock TB you will see a 3mm restriction
right in front of the blade. So your 65mm 2000 TB is really 62mm.
How big to go: You will read the boards and everyone will tell you
bigger is better. My experience has shown that as the bore size
increases you lose torque but gain HP. For the 4.7 a true 68mm bore is
as big as I recommend. There is very little gain to go bigger for the
price you pay on lowend. I can make them up to 71mm if you want but I do
not recommend.
You're Z tube will work with my modified TB just the same as stock.
Comparing my 4.7 TB to a 4.7 BF TB: The only difference is the price.
Only so much air can flow through a given bore size. There is no need
to spend the extra money.
The cost of my TB is $200. I do a core exchange. I can ship Mon if you
call with Credit Card info. Money back if not happy.
Please let me know if you are interested in purchasing or have any
questions. I look forward to helping you meet your performance needs.
Sounds like the fastman 68mm may be the way to go on a 2000 Dak
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CW
GenIII
7/25/2002
22:10:03
|  RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
From what I have heard the ASP throttle bodies are going to be better than the fastman. I have no idea on price though. Think that is what I will wait for. I think Bernd is looking for cores right now.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods
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cudashoe
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
22:38:46
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
You only gain around 3-5 HP.
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Wes
GenIII
7/25/2002
22:45:24
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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The following is an e-mail from Bruce at F&B.
The dyno testing we did showed a 4-6hp and 8 ftlb gain on a stock 4.7 (no other mods) with our 70mm TB. Additional gains over ported 68mm stock TBS (up to 12 hp and 15 ft lbs of torque) have been seen once a cat back exhaust, reflashed PCM and headers were installed. As with all high flow TBs, Your engine has to need the air to see big peak horsepower increases! Now that the HO cams and intake are available for the 4.7, we expect to see even more gains with the 70 and 72mm TBs!
Thanks,
Bruce K Bridges
F&B Performance Engineered Products
(858)720-9225
IP Z-tube, JET Stage 1, Borla headers, Gibson Exhaust, PowerSlot Rotors, 17" wheels, Gaylord cover, MTX stereo, HO Cams and Intake waiting to be installed
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
22:51:32
| Change the Cat for More Gains!
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Message:
It's probably true that you only gain 3-5 hp with
the restrictions of a stock catalytic convertor
and with the stock PCM. The same holds true with
the engine not responding as well to a larger
71-72mm TB with the stock cat/PCM also. You can't
get any more air into the engine unless you can
get it out.
Change that cat and PCM and see what happens!
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crm
Dodge Dakota
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7/25/2002
22:55:25
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
ducboy: i dont have the hardest numbers to give, but here is my .02 -
1. you can prolly expect a 5-10 rwhp increase. i am going to base that on my dyno runs before/after the Fastman TB (true 68mm) install. you'll see those kind of numbers from F&B as well.
2. i cant see the logic in going much bigger than a full 68mm on a normally aspirated engine. keep in mind that as the "hole" gets bigger you _may_ increase volume, but the velocity will decrease, which is a bad thing.
3. $400 for pretty much the same thing is ridiculous, unless you really want a new and shiny TB. add that to another $200 for an upgraded Z-tube and wow!!! thats a whole lotta money for 5-10 horsies. i am sure that F&B makes a really nice TB, but you can accomplish the same thing for half the price.
4. if you go with a Fastman TB, you can use the exact same Z-tube you have right now, whether you choose the 68mm or 71mm. remember he is re-working factory TB's, so the outside dimensions will be the same.
5. Dan Arcand is just a top-notch guy. he doesnt recommend 68mm because he wants you to be disappointed. in the times i have talked to him, i always got the feeling he was willing to do best by his customers. even if that meant giving them a 71mm TB to keep them happy, he'd do it. but i trust that he's worked with this stuff long enough to know what to recommend. and i really doubt that he'd say something was better when he knew it wasnt.
in short, you can't beat the price. and at 5-10 rwhp, why pay any more than $200? you'll notice more than enough of a difference going from a 65mm to a true 68mm, and you'll be able to use that extra $400 for a PCM flash or whatever.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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7/26/2002
11:04:28
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Are the 65mm's reworkable to a true 68mm or does a guy have to start with a 68mm?
$200 still seems like a lot of $ for a rework!... any decent machineshop could do the same thing in an hour I'm sure.. even at $80-100/hr, that's half the price. I bet it would only take about 45min though, including setup. I mean we're only talking about a tapered inner bore with a little bit of a radius right?
I think someone should check around with some local machine shops. I plan on it soon, but have no cash right now.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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7/26/2002
11:46:53
| De Blades!
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To open it up to be a true 68mm bore from a 65mm
they have to remove and fabricate/replace the
throttle blade which may also require machining to
the throttle shaft as well. The tapered bore is
the easy p
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crm
Dodge Dakota
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7/26/2002
11:51:48
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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canucker: i am sure he can rework a 65mm up to a true 68mm. AFAIK, the outside dimensions on the 65mm and 68mm are the same, it's just that in 2001 they decided to make the hole bigger on the inside. besides, he doesnt actually rework yours, he'll send you what you want and then take your core for the next guy. that way you can have both with you for a while to make sure it works okay and that you're pleased with it. once you've made the decision to keep the Fastman TB, you send your original back to him.
as far as price, i was willing to pay the $200 to have someone do it that knows exactly how to do it right. and it's not just porting and polishing - Dan will put a new shaft and a larger butterfly plate in there as well. he might do some other stuff but i'm not sure.
so yeah, you prolly could "save" some money by having your TB fixed up by any ol' machine shop, but IMHO, i dont think it's worth the risk of them doing it wrong.
-adam
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BBridges
Dodge Dakota
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7/26/2002
12:08:31
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
Hey, Thanks Dan!
F&B TBs... They will out flow any ported stock TB. If you need the air they will provide it. We make 68mm, 70mm and 72mm TBs for the 4.7. One for any need. All of our products are track, dyno and flowbench tested. They are made from the best, all-new materials (no used bearings). Yes, they are more expensive. Theres no comparison in the amount of work required to make a full billet TB vs. port a factory TB. I used to build ported factory TBs...
If anyone has any questions, you can feel free to email me!
Bruce K Bridges
F&B, When stealth isnt a concern, but performance is...
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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7/26/2002
15:01:54
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
yeah, those are good points adam & Duner ... and well taken.
Say Duner, do you have a website? Everyone always talks about your truck, but I've never seen it. Its a turbo'd 4.7 right? Twin Turbo?
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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7/26/2002
15:24:19
| Just a single...
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Message:
I ported my own 68mm TB in the beginning and it
was a definate gain over the stock 65mm my truck
came with. Then I added the F&B Billet 72mm in
some experimentation at the track. There was a
full 2 tenths of a second improvement between my
ported 68mm and the 72mm TBs.
My truck has a single turbo system on it. I need
to update some of the pics that are on this
web-page since I've removed the water/alcohol
injection system and added an air/water
intercooler instead.
http://members.cox.net/duner/Turbo/RTnotTurboPage.
html
You might have to cut & paste the addy together
since my browser manages to cut everything up
lately. (add the html on the end)
D
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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7/27/2002
15:53:01
| RE: HP Gain with 70mm TB??
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Message:
that's pretty sweet
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