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jon espi
Dodge Dakota
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7/15/2002
20:27:56
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 Subject: electronic supercharger
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hey im just wondering about the electronic supercharger and how it is, and what if any good performance increses and how much it costs.thanks.
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Bruce P
Dodge Dakota
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7/15/2002
21:15:46
| RE: electronic supercharger
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That question has come up a LOT reciently.
There is no way that someting ELECTRIC can supply the pressure(PSI) and flow(CFM) that would be needed to produce anything considerd BOOST.
Do not forget that a belt-driven blower uses up at least 10-20 horsepower just to do its job.
With some simple calculations.... (1HP=746 watts) Figuring low... (10 HP = 7460Watts) divide by 12Volts to determine AMPS... (7460/12 = 622AMPS)
Your battery would be drained very quickly if it had to supply 622AMPS for more than a short time to a blower.
BOTTOM LINE: High-School physics can be applied to determine that an electric supercharger simply cannot be practical.
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Jon
Dodge Dakota
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7/15/2002
22:08:59
| RE: electronic supercharger
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I think everyone's pretty much determined that they are as useful as those tornado things you put in between the air filter and the intake.
I've doing performance mods to my vehicles for a long time and i've discovered by trial and error (and wasted money) that:
1) HP costs $$. If a product claims to give you 30 horsepower for under $200 it probably doesn't work.
2) The basic science of the internal combustion engine hasn't changed much in 100 years. Turbo's blowers and nitrous have been around since the 1920's, there is no new plastic bolt on part that will make lots of power.
-Jon
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Bernd
*GenIII*
7/16/2002
00:29:54
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Uhhhh...Bruce. I had dyno tested the Dual eRam setup a few years ago and it made close to 20HP more at WOT (Dual 750CFM electric fans pulling 50amps each - yeah...not quite practical but it also produced 1psi boost on the Autometer gauge.)
Getting anything out of an electrical supercharger can be done with the correct motor and impeller design (just not to friendly on the battery for extended periods of time though).
BTW: $200 get's you 35-40HP from a Sneeky Pete Nitrous system ($198 if you shop around).
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Turboguy
Dodge Dakota
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7/16/2002
01:17:26
| RE: electronic supercharger
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There are prototypes out right now (not for public consumption) that have 900% efficiency!!
Ive personally seen one for a motorcycle that was supposed to generate 1hp, when in fact it generated 10hp! I was privy to the dyno test and debut and since this design is currently in the process of being patented , I will tell you its space age stuff!! I was very skeptical, but after seeing the results Im a true believer! :D
As development increases, it would not be unusual to have 100hp at the flick of a switch! (kinda like turning on the AC in your car!)
The designs Ive seen are currently for motorcycle applications. (mostly Harleys) This particular test I witnessed was performed on a popular japanesse motorcycle. :D Im excited for what the future will bring!
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NYSubDak
Dodge Dakota
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7/16/2002
04:36:25
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Turboguy,
That's funny that you use the analogy of turning on your a/c. Since turning on your a/c activates a clutch which engages a compressor which is belt driven which makes it more like a conventional supercharger except that it can be switched off, like the one in the new SL55AMG.
Bruce P,
Your formula cannot be used in this application. Its kinda like the story I saw in a power magazine about a guy who tried to justify eating just ice cream and cold beer since the calories of heat required to warm the food to body temp exceeded the calories contained in the food. Suffice it to say, he didn't lose any weight. We're talkin' apples n' oranges Vern!
Wade
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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7/16/2002
13:52:23
| RE: electronic supercharger
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thay do make electric superchargers that generate lots of boost. they have started making them to help buses get to speed earlier and then turn off when the driver is cruising.
electric superchargers do work but they are rather costly in most cases the price of a turbo.
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JImmy
Dodge Dakota
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7/16/2002
15:32:19
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Electric Supercharger?
Couldn't you get better results force feeding expanded CO2 or compressed air through your air system?
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Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
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7/16/2002
16:49:54
| RE: electronic supercharger
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The main reason why I don't see electric superchargers as viable over belt driven is that you're creating extra steps for waste. pulley->compressor has alot less wasted than pulley->alternator->motor->compressor. At the very best all it could do is act like a supercharger with a CVT. Of course that might be a good idea in itself.
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Bruce P
Dodge Dakota
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7/16/2002
22:42:32
| RE: electronic supercharger
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(Demon-Xanth) That is my point exactly! The amount of electric power (watts) needed to produce any real boost cannot be provided by the battery....not to mention a 20Amp alternator.
(NYSubDak) I like your ice cream&beer analogy. You are just explaining my calculations in another way. I re-checked my math and it looks right to me. If you wanted perhaps 1PSI of boost, your battery may be able to supply the current in short bursts. (sorta like starting your engine)
As Bernd says above, 100amps made 1PSI of boost so my calculated 600amps may produce about 4-5 PSI of boost. (non-linear curve) The problem would be finding electric motors that can take that kind of power. (00-gauge wire will be a MUST)
IDEA: Somone may wish to buy a 12-volt rechargable leaf-blower and "modify" it into a supercharger of sorts. This may be a lot of fun to have "instant boost" for short periods. You could wire it into a WOT switch!
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NYSubDak
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2002
03:23:31
|  RE: electronic supercharger
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Bruce,
My point was that your calculations assume that it takes just as much power to run the device as it generates. If this were the case, no form of supercharging would be viable.
Leaf blower?, you mean like this?:
lawn & Garden supercharger
Wade
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J
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2002
09:57:18
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Bruce P, i'm an engineer. I'm sorry to tell you that your calc's are the telling the whole story.
You must apply the Gas Laws, and the Conservation of Energy. Use P1v1/T1=P2v2/T2 in conjunction and you will see some magic happen.
Also, your electric analsis needs some work. You got that right when you said high-school physics. But there is some more 'magic' that I don't think you understand, and unless you can understand calculus, I don't feel like explaining it.
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Bernd
*GenIII*
7/17/2002
10:59:20
| RE: electronic supercharger
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http://www.electricsupercharger.com
I ran this unit for almost a year. Yes...it does suck quite a bit of juice and the alternator (with the dual setup) almost went bezerk. However, it did make 1psi (nothing impressive)...but there's room for improvement with a better electric motor and blade design.
Are they worth it? On a small engine...yes. On anything above 4.0L...not really (save the money and get a Powerdyne at minimum).
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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J
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2002
14:35:57
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Sorry, didnt mean to be rude. here are some sites with alot of discussion on electric superchargers. I have been doing alot of research, but I don't have the time to regergitate it all.
http://home.att.net/~t.vago/eram-waste-howto.html
http://www.240sx.org/faq/articles/superchargers.htm
http://users2.ev1.net/~subaru/E-Ram_installation.htm
http://grannypotts.freeservers.com/monkey.html
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/turbo_faq.htm
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2002
14:57:15
| RE: electronic supercharger
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NY Sub dak- is that sight a joke. the idea seems feasible if you got a blower with the right cfm.
when I started reading this post and looked at the eram it appears to be just a blower found on most inboard boats. I looked in all my marine catalogues and could not find one that blows more than 250cfm. if you've ever seen a blower from a boat they look the same.
I'm very temped to try the leaf blower thing because I have all the parts sitting around the garage.
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Bruce P
Dodge Dakota
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7/17/2002
18:22:24
| RE: electronic supercharger
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I realize that stuff... I was using the most simple math I could think of that easilly shows that there is not enough power available in the battery/alternator to supply an "electronic supercharger"
You do not have to be sorry... I have learned over 20 years of ENGINEERING that it is best to keep ones explinations as simple as possible for the "masses" to have a chance to understand. As you say... not everyone enjoys calulus... so let them experiment with a leaf blower.
BESIDES: Somone may just prove the fancy math wrong since they do not know about it. Many "breakthroughs" have been made by folks that do not know what they just did is not physically possible. (then they go on to become very wealthy while we 'engineers' are scratching our heads trying to figure out how they did it.)
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Bernd
*GenIII*
7/17/2002
21:21:40
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Uhhhh...that eBay "Electric Turbo" is a small fan that doesn't put out a whole lot. The eRam puts out a lot more.
On the first site listed...the guy goes into great (scientific/mathematical) detail...unfortunately, i've got the old Dyno sheets that disprove him. ;)
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Jimmy
Dodge Dakota
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7/18/2002
11:20:02
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Couldn't you get better results feeding expanded CO2 or compressed air through your air system?
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5pnt9ltrluv
R/T
7/18/2002
15:34:02
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Jimmy- nitrous oxide does...
Kris
Powerdyne w/ 6#, True dual Flowmaster 40's, MSD 6BTM w/ Blaster SS coil, Taylor 8mm, Flowmetrics 50mm t- body, JBA headers, Autolite 3923's, 180 degree T-stat, , Ported 1.92 R/T heads, 4bbl M1, 24# injectors, Crower 1.7 Roller Rockers, Hotchkis 2/3 w/ Nitro shocks, GTS hood
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conig
Dodge Dakota
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7/18/2002
16:37:47
| RE: electronic supercharger
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Jimmy I have thought of that myself. I've alway wanted to try hooking one of my scuba tanks up to my engine in the same way as a nitrous kit. most people told me it wouldn't work though.(plus my neighbor has his own pump to fill up the tanks)
of course the same people that told me it wouldn't work said an eram wouldn't work eather.
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Nick
Dodge Dakota
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12/06/2004
11:47:16
|  RE: electronic supercharger
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I have been looking at www.boatersworld.com and found a similar product that pushes 170CFM. It is the Del Mar Tunnel Blower, granted it is for boat use, but i have heard it used on automobiles, and the best part is, its $20.00. It would need modificaltion of the intake hoses ( possibly ) but other than that, you hook it up to a switch on your dash for toggling on/off and there ya go. Please imform me of any tests or suggestions as to if this would be feasable or not. email me or re-post
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