| From | Message |
drew
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/14/2002
02:18:43
|
 Subject: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Talked with Tom today @ speedtweaks about various performance upgrades for this specific engine. For the money, and to get the best perfomance, running the HO combo of heads, cams and intake manifold will produce huge power and torque results relative to the price. For the amount of money for an exhaust, 70mm tb and air intake, you can run the HO setup and get more than twice the results. I tow alot, and need torque, this combo is the only setup that will produce great results in my situation. I know how to get the cams and intake, but what about the heads? Anyone installed these yet or know much on them? What do you think of this combo?
|
B1llyw
GenIII
 
5/14/2002
09:50:18
|  RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
I would just stick with the cams for your application. The heads and manifold will not create more much more torque and all they will do is move the torque peak up the rpm band. In particular if you are interested in towing, I would do the cams, see where that gets you, and then leave the option of the other stuff. I have heard the that the Jeep HO motor is a dog. But those same cams in a stock motor, albeit with more restriction, make a real nice power adder.
Bill White - 2002 QC 4x4, SLT , 4.7, 5 spd, 3.92's w/LSD, Airaid, MBRP Super Single, Hurst T-Handle, BFG A/T's, IAS Shocks, 180 T-Stat, Jet Chip - Stage II
|
conig
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/14/2002
14:53:19
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
how can a grandcherokee that runs 14's be a dog. I wish I had the balls to install the h.o cams cause labor is whats keeping me from doing it.
|
joel
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/14/2002
15:15:01
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
The HO cams may produce more power than the intake manafold or heads when compared seperatly. However, its all of the modifications together that make a big difference.
Joel
|
CW
GenIII
5/14/2002
19:43:52
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
If I am going to go through the trouble of removing the heads I will get them ported and flowed. I don't want to swap back to a prodution port only slightly better than the ones on there.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
|
cudashoe
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/15/2002
00:32:12
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
I still Say PCM upgrade is by far the best bang for the buck on the 4.7s
|
Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/15/2002
12:35:27
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
The new ho grand cherokee is not a 14 sec performer stock. It is not faster then the 98 5.9 limited which still holds the fastest Grand Cherokee title, according to the droves over at www.jeepsunlimited.com. The new 4.7 HO is close but it's just moving more weight then the old 98. So if you put all the HO parts on the dakota 4.7 then you would get the 275 HP. You'd have to do a custom PCM flash and I don't hear anybody talking about the extra compression the HO gets. Just the cams, heads, and intake will give you less then the 275 which doesn't seem that that great of a bang-for-the buck. The cams do seem to be a good deal, but most 4.7 guys really like the way a pcm flash and better exhaust work on the 4.7.
|
alex
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/15/2002
13:38:07
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
I'm not worried over which is the best. I'm just gonna install all of it. HO cams, HO intake, 3" cat, PCM flash, 3" exhaust(already in place), and 70 mmTB (already in place). Then I've got all the bases covered.
|
conig
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/15/2002
13:57:24
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
sorry, I remembered ready 14.7 or something like that in an earlier post.
|
Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/15/2002
23:41:05
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
alex, except the extra compression.
|
D
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
01:26:24
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
yeah, and the HO pistons.....
|
Jeffster
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
01:40:25
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Well might as well throw in that HO crank if your doing ths pistons. Hersbird go give that big 5.9L a hug. The way you creep that 5.9 into every subject (I don't know where the 5.9 limited still holds the title of fastest Cherokee ever came from?) leads me to beleive you missed the boat when you bought the R/T. I guess good things come to those that wait. That meaning now that the mod's are coming fast and furious the devestaing impact of our OHC engine is really being felt. I guess that's why most of the exotics are small OHC V8's. Ferrari's is a 3.8L!!!!!!!! Ya there is definetly a replacement for displacment.
|
D
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
01:49:40
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
hehehehehehe *5.9 r's are crying* who
needs those extra 73 cubic inches?
personally, I enjoy my motor being a few
pounds lighter ; ) plus the aluminum heads
help......
D
01/4.7/mods/DJMdrop3-6
|
alex
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
09:08:22
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Oh poo poo on me. Guess I won't be able to bump my compression half a point. I also won't have to gut my engine to install a new crank (doesn't need it) or new pistons (not worth the effort).
Bernd posted a while back about a dealer in TX who was installing HO Cams, HO intakes and a computer flash for 35 more rear wheel horsepower.
200 rwhp + 35 rwhp = 235 rwhp.
The Jeep comes with 270hp on the window sticker. 80% of that is 216 rwhp (because it has to go thru an automatic... 20% loss).
Last I checked, 235 is more than 216. I'm not going to install the crank and pistons because that would be silly!
|
Chris Henry
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
10:38:05
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
The HO engine doesn't offer a lot more than the regular 4.7. The gains are mostly at high rpms. It is faster, but if you want to get real about power, I'd go for a Kenne Bell. Even my supercharged 350 hp / 390 ft. lbs. of torque highly modified Jeep struggles to do a 14 flat.
|
alex
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
11:09:42
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Nice ride!! I'm looking for cheap horsies. So far, I've spent $600 +/- to get my 4200 lb CluCab to a 15.18 @ 90.11 mph. For about $300 more (cams & intake manifold), I should be at 14.7's or so and then with the $400 PCM flash, I should be at 14.5's or better. That's $1300 for 1.5 secs and that's pretty economical in my mind.
PS- Really nice ride.
|
Chris Henry
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
11:32:25
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
I hear where you are coming from. The PCM flash is a good idea, be careful mixing the PCM flash with a new cam, a little predetonation can go a long way to ruin your 4.7. Good luck!
|
alex
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
11:48:48
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
No, I'm gonna discuss that at length with Tom at Leach. I'm kinda hopin' be the HO guinea pig with this flash (if he thinks there's gonna be enough changes to make). I've fought with detonation before on my old V-6, so I'm on top of it.
|
Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
12:06:04
|  RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Sorry only way to make up for displacement is to increase RPM's or add a force induction.
Most Supercars run 4.9L and up with and avg. 5.5L up to 6.8L
Yes the 360 Modena has a 3.6L N/A, but check out the rpm needed 8500! Did I mention 270tq@4750 HA.
Lotus 3.5 V8 has Turbos
I can think of three basic way to make power,
1st. Use a big Bore which is a big engine to draw more air into the cylinder per stroke.
2nd. Use a small Bore but increase RPM to move more air in and out.
3rd. Force air into the engine because either it doesn't move enough air fast enough or doesn't have a big piston to draw in much air.
If their was a significant replacement for cubes we would be running motorcycle engine in our trucks. But there isn't.
I'm not saying a smaller engine can't outperform a bigger engine, but it's due to the configuration of the engine more than raw cubes.
Just Bore & Stroke to the 4.7L to a 5.9L and see how much better it would be.
|
alex
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
12:12:04
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Okay!! I'll look into boring and stroking my 4.7 to a 5.9 this afternoon after lunch. Thanks for the advice!!!
BTW, what do you think that will cost? ABout $250 maybe $500 for the "Bore & Stroke" kit? Cool!!!
|
Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
12:51:06
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
I'll do it for $350 and I'll send you some 5.9L stickers.
I bet the 4.7L block would be to thin to bore any ways.
|
R_U_FST2
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
13:53:12
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Hmmmm, a 287 to 360, that's only 9.125ci per cylinder in combination of bore and stroke. That shouldn't be too hard ... does the engine still have to work afterwards though?
What about getting the V8 to V16 kit, just put a special shim (which I will sell to you) dead-nuts between each cylinder ... and voila, you just doubled the HP.
;-)
|
alex
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
14:10:53
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Hey thanks for that advice, too!!
I'll buy one of those cylinder shim kits, too!!! Then I'll have a 5.9L V-16!!!! And with overhead cams at that!!!
SHould I run the Flowmaster 50 series or 40 series behind that kind of combo????
I am really serious about getting started on this TODAY!!!!!
Anybody know where I can get new spark wires for my 4.7?????
I keep typing a lot of punctuation!!!!!!!!
|
Duner
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
14:24:15
|  Replacement for Displacement
IP: Logged
Message:
Anthony - you forgot the 4th and most basic way..... efficiency.
You can get the 4.7 to go quite a bit quicker by adding timing and optimizing the A/F mixture.... which is the results of a PCM reprogram.
You can get the 4.7 to go quite a bit quicker by adding airflow.....
cams, intake, TB, intake manifold, cylinder head porting/polishing and exhaust system work.
The 4.7 has a very efficient design. Some of the features of this efficient design are the light weight components in the rotating assembly. Light rods, pistons and wrist pins go a long way in the efficiency department. Add to that the integral windage tray and high efficiency oiling system. The heads have generous and well designed ports.... they just need a little bit of massaging to make them work their best.
I believe that you can get a 4.7 to over 350 hp by increasing efficiency..... without resorting to forced induction or additional displacement.
Don't believe me? Just wait......
|
Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
14:40:23
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Would that be something like NOS :) or spinning the engine at 8500rpm> LOL.
I'm sure you can get 350HP out of a 4.7L N/A.
What is the current pressure running threw the injectors? What if somehow that could be doubled or tripled? That should make a very fine mist that could help out horsepower.
Well good luck, I doubt you'll be getting rid of your turbo any time soon.
|
Art
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
14:49:20
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Duner you had your heads off, do you think that seats could be opened up for bigger valves or is there just no room? I havent seen a pic of these heads yet
|
Duner
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
15:05:41
| There's HP in the heads!
IP: Logged
Message:
Art - There most certainly is room for bigger valves! The exhaust valves are very small on this engine. The physical port sizes are generous and straight shots without any obstructions at all. There is a definate need for bowl work since there is all kinds of "bad" edges where they machined the heads for the valve seats. There is an honest 25 to 30 hp available (if not more) just by blending the bowls and narrowing up the extra material around the guides.... without ever even touching the actual port openings. I tried to take some pics of everything when I had mine apart. Unfortunately my camera wasn't capable of "macro zoom" and it all came out blurry. Dohhh! I had hope to be able to show people what I was talking about.
Since people generally don't take things apart until they are out of warranty, It's just a matter of time before people start to tear into these things and do some internal mods.
|
Art
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
15:24:11
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
Sounds promising Duner,I would love to get my hands on a set of heads to play with,I keep searching the local wreckers around here and no 4.7 doners yet :) I`m with you the real power to come from this engine is in the heads and a matched cam
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
17:01:41
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
I wonder if the 6L V-10 concept Chryster made for the Chronos concept car would fit in the Dakota :)
(add two cylinders to a 4.7)
|
Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
19:02:55
| RE: The Perfect 4.7L Package!!
IP: Logged
Message:
I guess you can't add those higher efficiency parts to the 360 huh? You can add better flowing heads, and intake? You can use light weight pistons, rods, and crank? You can't use longer rods and shorter pistons to improve rod ratios? I'll tell you what you can't do with a 4.7 and that's get 408 inches out of it. Anything besides the overhead cams can be added to the LA motors, and here is where we always come down to the no replacement for displacement, because anything that is really helping the 4.7 can be done to the 5.9, but the 4.7 can never get the cubes available to the LA motor. Just look at the winston cup cars. They are running good old fashion pushrod mopar small blocks and making 750+ hp without any kind of power adders. I didn't come here to start crap about the 5.9 -vs- 4.7 thing, just to point out there is more to the Jeeps HO 4.7 then just cams, heads, and intake, and I was questioning the claim that the 4.7 HO in the Jeep runs 14's. I'm sorry the 4.7 HO is not as fast as the 5.9 limited, it really sucks when you take away the real advantage the 4.7 has over the 5.9, the 5-speed manual. I really hope they do the 4.7 HO for the Dakota R/T next year, remember there will be no manual with that motor, then we will see how well they do on a more even field.
|
Duner
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
5/16/2002
20:32:31
|  Are you sure?
IP: Logged
Message:
Hersbird - Are you sure you can't get more displacement out of a 4.7 engine? ;>) Why would that be? You mean because MaMopar doesn't offer a kit for it yet? Have you ever hade one apart and looked at it? There's LOTS of room for "growth".
The whole point is that you don't need to add the higher efficiency parts to the 4.7. It came that way from the factory. Why do you think an engine with 80% of the displacement of the 5.9 is making 96% of the power? EFFICIENCY And that's the bone stock hp figures, nevermind the 4.7 HO engine or the differences in transmissions. With better efficiency you don't need to try and make 408 cubic inches. If you do the math - a 340 "stroker" from a 287 (4.7) would make the same power as the much touted 408 "stroker".... and that's if you kept the same "efficiency values" (360=.69hp/ci vs 287=.81hp/ci).
I think the amazing part of this whole conversation is all of the sparks that fly every time another mod becomes available for the 4.7 engine. The 4.7 guys are all happy because the HO engine makes a measly 35 hp more. That's NOTHING compared to what will be available in the future. I mean c'mon. The HO cam makes more power than the original 4.7 does, but it's still a stock part that's built to pass emissions! You know that honest to goodness performance cams will do a bunch more for it. The same thing can be said for the stock vs HO intake manifolds. What makes anyone think that they are done developing the 4.7 engine? Doesn't anyone find it odd that there would be a NA 4.7 Dakota at a track in Michigan with manufacturer plates on it running 13.30s?
Yeah, the winston cup cars are running good old fashion pushrod Mopar small blocks and making 750+ hp.....
But they aren't using ANY of the parts that come on a 5.9 engine and they cost more than two of our trucks do! hahaha They might both be small blocks and they both are start out from Mopar, but that's where the comparison's end. Comparing the 5.9 truck engine to the Winston cup race engine is about the same as comparing a Cessna 172 and a Cessna Citation. They are both Cessnas and both airplanes, but anybody that's ever seen, flown, worked on or priced both of them would tell you that there's absolutely no comparison! The only resemblence would be in name only.
You're right about the 5-speed advantage..... it does help. I think the biggest problem with the whole "4.7 automatic is slow" argument is that next to none of them were ordered with the 3.92 gears. The 3.92s really wake the 4.7 up. Generally the people that wanted to race them bought the 5-speed with 3.92s and LS. It's obviously pretty tough to compare the performance of a 4.7 automatic with a 3.55 open rearend with the performance of an R/T and it's 3.92 LS rearend. Gears and Limited Slip help a bunch. How much of an ET difference would you expect it to be? I'd bet it's at least a half a second! Judging by all of the 4.56 gear swaps the 5.9 guys are doing..... even lower gears work better! It probably won't be long before somebody with a 4.7 automatic goes with a set of 4.56 gears instead of his 3.55s and posts how it dropped his ETs by a full second! hahaha
I wouldn't worry about 4.7 R/Ts being slow... they most certainly will receive the lower gears, limited slip, intake, cams, more aggressive PCM programming (prolly the whole HO package) and hopefully a better flowing cat and exhaust from the factory.... just like the 5.9 R/Ts did! My guess is a rating of 290hp from the factory in stock form. Anybody wanna make any bets?
So how pissed will the 5.9 guys be if the 4.7s are a bunch quicker instead of slower???
We might just find out!
|
| | P 1 Next Page>> |
