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Jon
Dodge Dakota
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3/28/2002
17:21:50
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 Subject: Autocross Racing
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Message:
Ok it's hard enough to build a truck to race decent cars from a stoplight in a straight line. I would like to set up my truck for autocrossing. There are others that run trucks in SCCA competition, they aren't as fast as the little cars but they still score points. Any tips for making a 1996 Dak handle and steer good? Of course tires are a must, and i've already got traction bars. Maybe 2" lowering blocks in the rear?
-Jon
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Tom Slick
Dodge Dakota
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3/28/2002
19:12:55
| RE: Autocross Racing
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This is what I'm probably going to go with on my 96 Dakota 5.2L.
Quickor Sway Bar Kit - 1 3/8" Front with 1" Rear- 1996 Dakota - Aggressive Handling (Speedtweaks)
Quickor Front Springs 2" drop
Western Chassis Lowering Shackles 2-2.5-3" adj. 1-piece hangers or 2" 1-piece shackle mounts
Later,
Tom "Slick"
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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3/30/2002
02:14:26
| RE: Autocross Racing
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hay jon, it's good to hear someone interested in maiking their truck handle.
I have a 94 sc v-6 5sp. I have done A-LOT of mods to my truck to surprize the sh-- out of some people when it comes to the twisty stuff. In the process of getting your truck reddy to tear it up, I would suggust getting some reeding matirial on the subject. Trust me I have worked on many differnt rides, for quite some time and I am still reading any new stuff that comes out.
To comment on your mods that you say you have already, blocks and traction bars, if you want to get a good handler, get rid of them.
traction bars are for straight liners. the blocks will give you a-lot of axle twist resulting in sevire wheel hop!! When you start reeding about the subject you will find out that the right pinion angle and a good set of adjustable shocks will give you good trction. Now if you are going to be making some ball busting hp, then I would look into some kind of traction device.
as to the parts you use, do not use aim "crap"! do as tom said and use the western chassis stuff. they are really good products, and the staff there are pretty helpful.
If you want any more advise feel free to e-mail me. mannyzamora@hotmail.com. The most important thing yougot to remember is that if anyone tells you why are you wasting you time trying to make a truck handle, first tell them to go play on the freeway, cause I got the same slack from all my buds with rustangs and evan the the mopar people. Then when I took them for a ride with the g-tech on and slammed out a .96g rt and .97g lt on two on ramps, they where convinced..
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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3/30/2002
02:16:52
|  RE: Autocross Racing
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I almost forgot, what state do live in.
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Jon
Dodge Dakota
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3/31/2002
09:52:55
| RE: Autocross Racing
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I live in NY, near Buffalo, i'm going to autocross in Rochester though. My idea with the lowering blocks was to lower the center of gravity. I bought some 1" lowering blocks but i haven't installed them yet. Also i just aligned the truck and i gave it a little bit of negative camber in the front :)
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Tom Slick
Dodge Dakota
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3/31/2002
10:26:59
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Jon,
I autocrossed for several years... if you want to make that Dakota handle really well, I do recommend going with the aggressive sway bars, the lowering springs for the front(too many problems with dropped spindles), and the adj. rear lowering hangars.
Blocks are not the way to go with autocrossing due to the lateral forces you'll be putting on the truck while autocrossing.
Later,
Tom "Slick"
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2002
02:18:41
|  RE: Autocross Racing
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hay Jon tom is right about the blocks, and the lowering adj hangers. I have the western chassis hangers on my truck. if you decide to go with the wes chs stuff, you wont go wrong. I have had my kit on my truck for about 3 years, and no problems. When you go with your sway ber selection, I am running 1 1/8 solid bar in the front and a 3/4 in the rear. you did not mention what engine you had but if you have an 8 you could try a 1 3/8 in the front or running solid end links on the smaller bar. As in for spring I ordered mine from a local Iebach dealer. 2" lower at 750 lb spring rate. Again if you have an 8 try an 800-825 lb spring. Since you are interested in autocrossing, the heavier spring and the 1 1/8 front bar will probely work better. By the way that is a good idea to set your front end up with negitive camber, that way if you really like driving kind of aggresive on the street, you tires wont want to fold over. again if you or any body on this sight has any questions on making your trucks out perform some of these so called "sports cars" e-mail me and I will try to answer you question as soon ass I get a chance.
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Ctdak
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2002
19:50:51
| RE: Autocross Racing
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I have a 97 dak with a Western Chassis kit in front, Hotckis kit in the rear and beefy swaybars all around. My question is how can I get some more traction for the back without the traction bars? I eventually want to run it on an autocross track and maybe the strip. Has anyone had experiance with the Kenny Brown X-brace and does this help traction?
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Tom Slick
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2002
20:37:11
| RE: Autocross Racing
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You might look into a Roadmaster Active Suspension...
Later,
Tom "Slick"
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2002
02:32:56
| RE: Autocross Racing
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I personally do not have any expierance with the roadmaster deal or dont know anybody that has used it before. I am not saying that it does not work, just no expierance.
The x-brace will give you more tortional rigidity, but more traction, no.
On my dak I moved the pinion angle to 4deg nose down, with shims. When I made this adjustment all of my wheel hop was eliminated. Something else you might want to try is going with the wst chs front hangers. Since they have different hight adjustments, that will also work to help your anti-squat. If you are looking at the hanger from the side of the truck, when you move the spring up on the hanger it will give a little more traction.
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Ctdak
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2002
12:13:29
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Thanks for the help guys. I did a little research here on the roadmaster and the people that use it seem to like it alot, so I will probabley try this mod out.
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dbbaker
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2002
17:20:19
| RE: Autocross Racing
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I'm not into autocross but I can hit the corners much better and all I added was the eldebrock IAS shocks. body roll feels almost non-existant and wheel contact is super. probably would work well with the other mods you all are talking about.
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FazDak
GenII
4/02/2002
23:56:13
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Another good mod is to replace all cab and bed mounts with urethane or solid as the Daks stock ones are real mushy and lend themselfs to roll.
I read this tip a few years ago in a Mopar mag and they said it helped ALOT.
Scott
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/03/2002
12:19:39
| RE: Autocross Racing
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I also read that article, but was a little skepticle. then one day I was out for a ride and noticed how much the bed moves. went and got the energy bushings, they do really help.
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FazDak
GenII
4/03/2002
15:47:52
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Glad to hear that because when I'm done with going fast in a straight line I am going for better handling and was wondering how well that worked.
I noticed my bed moves like an inch each way different than my cab sometimes, thats gotta hurt handling!!
Scott
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/03/2002
18:58:11
|  RE: Autocross Racing
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hay faz dak, the bed does move around about an 1" or more. The energy's did help a bunch.
I had the sponges on at my first two open track events. When I made a list of the the bugs I had to work out I decieded to change the mounts to see if they would help, they did. When I look in my rear view now, the whole truck is moving as a whole. I will try my hardest to post pictures and some specs tonight. You wanting to fast around corners is a good move. Just to see the the jaws of those ricers drop, when you fly by them on a onramp or offramp, makes it all worth it. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask.
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Ctdak
Dodge Dakota
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4/03/2002
19:22:26
| RE: Autocross Racing
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How hard were the mounts to install and do they squeak much?
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Jon
Dodge Dakota
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4/03/2002
20:53:19
| RE: Autocross Racing
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How do the urethane bushings ride on the street? I heard they transfer alot of road noise and vibration to the cab. Does having the body tighter actually help cornering? It seems like it wouldn't help handling, just make cornering more comfortable for the driver.
-Jon
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/04/2002
00:20:58
| RE: Autocross Racing
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CTDAK, the mounts were pretty easy to install. I started with the bed. You undo all the bolts,get a piece of 2x4 about a foot long and put it on top of you factory scisor jack and look for a spot on one side of the bed. Start lifting the jack until the old bushings are loose. remember you don't have to lift very much, just enough to where they are loose. Take the old mounts out and install the new ones. "MAKE ABSOLUTLY SURE" you use the supplied lube. Every energy bushing that I have installed on my truck, I used this lube, and no squeeks. When you are done,repete the same process for the other side. One thing, only snug the first side you do, then when you have done the other side then tighten them all up. Repete the same process for the cab.
JON the energy ride fine on the street. I am not going to tell you that you don't get any road noise, cause then I would be blowing smoke. As in to your question, does having a tighter body frame conection help handling, yes it does. Just look at it this way, if your riding your bike with a backpack on with nothing in it, what happens,nothing. now put like 40 pounds in that back pack and try to take a turn and what will happen is that wheight is going to transfer and your rear tire will brake loose. Same afect on your truck, when your truck is taking a hard turn the wheight of the cab and the body are going to shift, and worse yet the whight move in a upword motion so it is going to take wheight off your inside tires.
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Dr0p0ff
GenIII
4/04/2002
07:45:48
| RE: Autocross Racing
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having stiffer body mounts will also help slightly with your torsional rigity. probably not all that much.. but it'll help.
any of you guys have the part numbers/prices from energy sus? thanks much
Sgt G
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FazDak
GenII
4/04/2002
16:34:51
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Thanks alot roadracer
Do you race SCCA or another sanctioning body?
I was thinking of doing road racing when I started my Dak so I emailed SCCA and they didnt respond so thats when I figured they didnt alow trucks or something so I went straight line performance.
As you have probably seen I am running a V6 and that lends itself to road racing a little better than a heavier V8, I have quite a bit of power now but am sure I would be unable to use NOS (maybe straightaways, lol) because Im sure they dont alow it in that type of racing.
I am still a little interested in road racing so an info you could pass along would be apreciated.
Thanks, Scott
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/05/2002
01:38:20
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Message:
Hay Faz Dak, I'm glad to here that someone else is interested in the twisty stuff. All the opentrack events that I have run so far where nor cal shelby events. You see before I got into the loan business I used to wrench on alot of there cars. So when I finally got sick and tired of going to races just to watch, I decided to run my truck. I admit I was a little intimidated running against some of those cars out there but I did pretty well.
I have made a bunch of improvements since the then. I just recently went out to thunderhill park racetrack just a couple of weeks ago, for a test and tune day. Just changed the wheel and tires, and made a few suspention adjustments a changed a couple of parts. Well all I can say was that I am flat as pancake and sticking like glue. If you decide to up grade wheel and tires, go with the KUMO VICTOR RACER. As hard as I tride I could not brake this truck loose.
I really do not know why the SCCA has not answered you. There is a gouy out here in nor cal that open trakes a dodge D50. the thing must whaigh like 2700 lbs. I know for sure that he races in SCCA events. Just saw him again last month at sears point giving all the ricers fits.
Power wise I can hang with some of the stock 5.0s on the straights, but on the corners I can get around them easy. I really cant tell you if you can run NOS at these events. I would think it would be pretty good on straights. Hopefully BERND gets that turbo kit done kinda quick, cause
I really need it.
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fazDak
GenII
4/05/2002
23:29:50
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Maybe its cause Im on the east coast? I did note that on the email.
My truck is pretty damn tight on corners now but thats only cause its riding on the bump stops when the lean takes the slack out of the suspension!! and no it dosnt feel good to hit a bump in a fast corner!! lol.
But it does feel alot better to me than it did stock, all the springs were way to mushy before.
Yes youve probably figure me out by now, I cut a coil and a half off the front and installed drop spring ahngers and blocks in the rear, but I did get Nitro drop shock (which Im not to impressed with).
Take care, Scott
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Ctdak
Dodge Dakota
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4/06/2002
14:16:42
| RE: Autocross Racing
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Where on the east coast are you? I'm obviously in CT, but would like to race some other daks if I had the chance. I in the beginning stages of building a race truck, so haven't done anymore than street racing.
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/06/2002
20:12:21
| RE: Autocross Racing
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FAZDAK, first let me tell you that riding around on those bump stops could get you in trouble if you start taking fast sweepers at a quick rate. If your suspention does not have anywhare to go what it is acually doing is causing your tires to leave the ground. And I like to have all 4 wheels on the ground when i am making a turn.
If you don't mind let me sudjust some parts and mods that can get you started on the right track with out braking the bank or loosing control of your truck on the twistys.
1: Iebach 2" lowered springs, 750lbs spring rate, poly sway bar bushings, and end links. 2: rear wst chs adj frnt hngrs and rear hngs, rear 3/4" PST or ST sway bar. dont go with the hellwig the end are right over the leafs. 3: pro-shocks 3 way adj street stock shocks for a 70-73 chvl app. Yes for a chvl, with the lowered ride hight of your dak they are a bolt deal.
Now I am not saying that you dumping $$, but all those parts = about $1000. If you are on a buget you can start with the front and finish with the rear. On the mods, depending on what kind of tolls you have at your disposal. You can start by taking the overload spring off of each leaf. If you still carry some kind of loads, dont bother. On the the bump stop deal what you can do is cut the pocket that the stop rides in, in half. Than cut a square notch on the side facing the outside of the truck. Get a piece of 1/8-1/4" plate cut to the same size of the pocket drill and tap it to 3/8x16, then weld the plate to the pocket. What this does is makes the bump stops adj. Why this way, cause if you put this thing on the track you can adjust the stops to the track, more bump bigger gap, less bumps smaller gap. With this starting set-up you will be able to out handle about anything on the road, short of all the exotic stuff.
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SuperBeeDak
Dodge Dakota
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4/06/2002
21:11:12
| RE: Autocross Racing
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This is so cool to finally hear from some people trying to make these trucks into road racers. Granted, I've never had my fastest Dak on a road course (I'd love to see how that AWD would perform) but I do have a suggestion for making the Dak's take corners well. On mine, instead of going to the poly body mounts I went to a bearing shop and bought a set of steel-shimmed nylon bushings. Now these bushings do not flex much at all, I'd almost be willing to say that they don't flex. This is a great mod to do because it truly lets you feel the truck and the lack of sway in the body makes the weight distribution much more even. The biggest difference I noticed was the traction increase when accelerating hard out of corners. Now I don't know if these might be too stiff for suspension components as I haven't tried them there. I want to look into that a little more before I start breaking stuff.
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/06/2002
21:36:36
| RE: Autocross Racing
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superbeedak, the nylon bushing idea is a good one, but as in flex, those thing are about "zero movment". You say you put them on the body mount locations, one ?, how does your truck ride? If your going to use your dak for track use only, I would say go ahead and put them on the the suspention pionts. But if you plan on driving this thing on the street, the only thing you will fell like its going to brake is your back.
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FazDak
GenII
4/06/2002
23:12:18
| RE: Autocross Racing
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roadracer, sounds like you know your $hit!!
Unless I could find some events close to me (a state away or closer) I doubt I will put that kinda time into the suspension, money is no problem but I do have a 1/8th and 1/4 goal to meet first.
I currently have the bed off (again) to install a 8 3/4 rear so I can use the 4.10 limited slip third member from my 73 340 challenger.
I do need a good (urethane) trans mount, do you know where I could get one?
The NOS has put so much stress on things I blew it out the other day.
Thanks alot for the suspension receipt, I am saving it for when I get to that point..
CT, check my profile.
Take care, Scott
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roadracer
Dodge Dakota
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4/07/2002
13:39:14
| RE: Autocross Racing
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I hate to hear about that you probely have to go to another state to hit the turns, that sucks!!
When you finish that 8 3/4 install, do me a favor and tell me how it went. I am thingking about doing the same thing. For now I am putting the dak in the garage. I have to switch gears for a bit and put some work on my 68 charger. Just finished putting a rack and frame connectors on it.
In the mean time I will most likly change my front suspentin to a coilover set-up, and look in to bigger brakes for the front. I e-mailed bernd and sent him some pics of my truck yesterday, imploring on how much I need that turbo kit. I know this progects take time, but hopefully the sooner the better.
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SpeedTuba
GenIII
4/07/2002
14:51:23
| RE: Autocross Racing
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FazDak, where in VA are you? I grew up in Northern VA (Loudoun Co.) and rememver my dad autocrossing at Old Domonion Speedway. He was racing with the local Corvette Club, but if it's still around, I'm sure there is some occasional SCCA stuff there.
W. Patrick Jones
98 Dakota Sport 3.9L
Emerald Pearl Coat
http://www.geocities.com/wpmjones/
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SuperBeeDak
Dodge Dakota
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4/07/2002
19:48:20
| RE: Autocross Racing
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roadracer-
The truck rides great with the nylon bushings. But I would always prefer to have better performance than a comfortable ride. (Guess I've been racing cars too long). I plan to incorporate those bushings into the suspension soon but first I'm going to check and see if there are any suspension parts that might break when the bushings don't give. I don't thinkit would be a problem but you never know. And BTW...anyone know of any tracks that run autocross in colorado?
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