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BobH
Unregistered
3/28/2001
19:22:20
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 Subject: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
I purchased a used 2000 Dakota SLT with a 3.9L engine and 20K miles about 3 weeks ago. Love the truck! I have noticed some occassional light spark knock on low speed acceleration when the engine is hot (i.e. sitting in traffic or long drive). The owners manual makes reference to light spark knock at low speeds being okay (indicating to me that Dodge expects some). There is also a warning about regular use of "premium" gasoline.
So here's my question: Is light spark knock on Dakota 3.9L to be expected? I'm using regular octane (87) gas, should I try mid-grade (89)? Or is it time for a visit to my friendly Dodge service center?
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intense99dak
*GenIII*
3/28/2001
20:39:24
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Yea, the pinging is unfortunately very common in Dodge's magnum engines. There's some things you can try before you take it to the dealer. If you do take it to the dealer, they will more than likely reflash the computer, but I've heard some stories about the flash not working and there being a loss of power afterwards.
Try the 89 octane gas. A lot of people have had good luck with it. Another easy fix is changing your spark plugs to Autolite 3923. These plugs are one range colder than stock. Another possible cure is to replace your stock 195 degree thermostat with a Robert Shaw 180 degree T-stat. I think you'll see good results with the T-stat considering you hear the knocking more with a hot engine.
As for knocking, I don't think any amount of knocking/pinging is good for the engine. I think DC says that because they screwed up a little and don't know how to fix it.
Congrats on your "new" Dak! ;-)
Chuck Robbins
'99 Dakota Sport
www.intense99dak.com
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BobH
Unregistered
3/30/2001
18:58:26
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Thanks for the tips. I'll start with the mid-grade gas then go from there.
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Don
Unregistered
3/30/2001
21:32:58
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
I have a 1996 full size truck that pings to. The better fuel helps but the ping is from the timing being to advanced. The timing advance is done by the computer probably for good fuel milage. I would not worry to much of a little ping.
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mpjunkie
Unregistered
4/03/2001
02:09:28
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
That ping is normal theres a TSB on the problem We get customers all the time asking about it, theres not much you can do about it. its there for life,
driveabillty tech at dodge dealer, MOPAR MADD!
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Bernd
GenIII
4/03/2001
13:48:09
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Obviously MPflunkie works in the back room sweeping the floors.
There are several TSB's that cover the various problems associated with the pinging:
(1) Spark Plug Wire Reroute
(2) Belly Pan "fix" (Intake Manifold)
(3) PCM Flash (slightly retarded timing curve)
In most cases, one grade higher on the fuel, a 180 T'Stat, or one heat range colder plugs will take care of the light pinging (or a combination of those three). If it's really bad (and the truck is still under warranty), take it to the dealer and have them fix it.
Pinging (aka: Detonation) isn't normal.
Bernd D. Ratsch
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT
Supercharged w/Nitrous
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Bob
DakotaEnthusiast
4/03/2001
17:40:28
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Hey..I love it,Bernd has been taking a swipe at MPflunkie.You go Bernd!
Beep Beep
00 Dak.CC SLT Plus 4.7L 235hp 355 L-Slip Auto.
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Wayne
GenIII
4/03/2001
18:13:17
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Where you been all day, Bob? You gotta' work for a living or sumthin'? ;-)
Racing isn't half as scary as saying "I do".
Wayne Van Metre
'99 CC SLT 5.2/auto/3.90 anti spin
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Bob
DakotaEnthusiast
4/03/2001
18:56:42
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Hey..Wayne,yes I have to work for a living,they are forcing me to work 12hrs a day!Can't retire,I only got 33 years at Jeep..Hehehehe boo whooo ;-}and I got 2x's and one wife.
Hy makes,road apples!
Does a hobby horse have a wooden $%#^
Bob-
PS-glad my Dakota doen't ping!
00 Dak.CC SLT Plus 4.7L 235hp 355 L-Slip Auto.
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BobH
Unregistered
4/05/2001
21:35:42
| RE: Pinging Dakota
IP: Logged
Message:
Well...thanks to all who have posted. I went to a mid-grade fuel and it appears to have taken care of the pinging. I've jotted down the spark plug and t'stat suggestions in case the pinging re-appears.
Thanks again!
BobH
2000 Dak.CC SLT 3.9L
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Wayne
GenIII
4/06/2001
20:54:42
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
BobH,
That kinda' blows Mr.McJunkie's typical Mopar shop answer in the water. Mechanic's need to get with hot rodders once in awhile so they can fix stuff that formal book training don't understand.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. :-O
Wayne Van Metre
'99 CC SLT 5.2/auto/3.90 anti spin
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RUMS
Unregistered
4/16/2001
15:54:04
| RE: Pinging Dakota
IP: Logged
Message:
Does anyone know why the manual says premimum may harm the engine.
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98SPRTV6
GenIII
4/16/2001
16:20:05
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
I didn't know that they say not to put 93 in our V6's. I have been putting it in there for the last 20K or so. Now all of the sudden when I put exxon or mobil in it, it looses power (feels like the clutch slippin' but its not) any ideas on that did I f%$k up my o2 sensors or injectors? Any ideas it is really starting to get annoying!
'98 Sport 3.9L 5-speed 3.55. Custom CAI, ASP Pullies, Traction Bars.
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RonW
*GenIII*
4/16/2001
20:44:36
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
The reason for not putting higher octane gasoline in your engine: You have been brainwashed into believing that the grades of gasoline go from regular 87, to mid grade 89, to premium 92. Premium gas is not better gas. It just cost more so you think it's better. But, to hell, you say. Yep, you've been had! The higher the octane the harder it is to ignite. Does that make it better? Only if your cylinder is too hot or your timing is off or your compression is too high. You want to prevent detonation or pinging. That's like a miniature gorilla with a sledge hammer pounding on your pistons. Sooner or later, they're gonna break. So with all things working right, you should be able to use regular 87. What you should strive for is to eliminate pinging by fixing the problem, not mask the problem by continuing to buy higher octane gas. What happens when you keep buying the "good" gas. You may have a belly pan gasket leak which causes a lot pinging because of an extreme lean mixture due to the vacuum leak. Lean mixtures causes hot cylinders causes pre-ignition and detonation. Masking that isn't going to fix the problem not to mention your gas mileage.
Ron
00 PB SLT QC 4X2 5.9 46RE 3.92 LSD
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Russ
GenIII
4/16/2001
21:15:05
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
I use to have a 98 ram with a 318,I had ping prob and dealer could not solve.So I experimented with diff brands of gas all regular no hi-test and found that some caused pinging and some stopped it.I still do not know why but it got rid of that damn pinging.Its great that the 4.7 seems to be a non-pinger.
2000 CC SLT 4X4 4.7 L-SLIP AUTO 3.55
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DJRUMS
Unregistered
4/17/2001
20:30:49
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
I went to the local dealer to inquire about the TSB sheets on the pinging problem, they told me they were not aware of any but would look into it.
Anybody know how I can get a copy of these TSB's
related to pinging?
2000 Quadcab V6 3.9
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RonW
*GenIII*
4/17/2001
23:02:48
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
What a bunch of idiots!
Ron
00 PB SLT QC 4X2 5.9 46RE 3.92 LSD
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RonW
*GenIII*
4/18/2001
00:38:20
| RE: Pinging Dakota
IP: Logged
Message:
Here is an example of one:
TSB: 14-08-97
Date: Nov 21, 1997
models: all gas vehicles
symptoms:
Long cold start times, warm-up sags, hesitations, and driveway die outs. These symptoms are most noticeable and severe at moderate ambient temperatures between 4-27 degrees C(40 - 80 degrees F).
notes:
This TSB is a discussion of DI (gasoline with a high Driveability Index). DI is a measure of gasoline TOTAL volatility, a tendency to vaporize completely. Hi DI is LESS volatile that low DI numbers. Most premium gas has a higher (worse) DI index that regular or mid-grade gas. Premium gas is NOT recommended for designed to run on 87 or 89 mid-grade gas.
For vehicles that require an octane of 91, premium is recommended or ever required. Using premium with higher that recommended octane is NOT recommended.
Discussion:
Gasoline with a high Driveability Index (Dl) can cause the above described symptoms.
DI is a measure of the gasoline's total volatility, or tendency to vaporize completely. A high DI number is less volatile than a low DI number. Most premium gasoline sold in the U.S. has a higher (worse) DI index than regular or mid-grade gasoline. Use of premium gasoline is NOT recommended for vehicles designed to run on 87 (R+M)/2 regular or 89 (R+M)/2 mid-grade gasoline. High DI gasoline also causes higher emissions for the same reasons it causes driveability problems.
For vehicles that require an octane rating of 91 (R+M)/2, premium is recommended, or possibly required. Using premium fuel with a higher than recommended octane rating not recommended. Owners who experience fuel related cold start and warm up driveability problems should try a gasoline with the recommended octane rating or different brands of gasoline until they find one that provides good performance.
The octane quality of gasoline is only a measure of its resistance to spark knock. The use of higher than recommended octane gasoline under normal operating conditions does NOT improve start ability, idle quality, fuel economy, driveability, acceleration, engine durability, or emissions. In fact, most higher octane gasoline available in the U.S. has a higher DI value than regular gasoline. Customers are most likely to experience poor driveability with premium gasoline than with regular.
Some vehicles, such as Viper, Prowler, 5.9L Grand Cherokee, 2.0L Turbo Talon, and 2.0L DOHC Neon have been specifically designed to take advantage of higher octane. These vehicles may have higher compression ratios, and/or more aggressive spark calibrations which provide optimum performance with the specified higher octane. However, other vehicles which are not specifically designed and calibrated to take advantage of higher octane will not benefit from higher octane.
Some vehicles may experience light spark knock in situations such as trailer towing or climbing steep sustained grades. Light knock or "ping" under these conditions is not harmful. However, if the customer is concerned about light knock under these circumstances, the use of 89 (R+M)/2 or even 91 (R+M)/2 premium gasoline may be temporarily warranted. If a vehicle is experiencing heavy spark knock on gasoline with its designed octane rating, this may be an indication of excessive combustion chamber deposits, or some other problem. Combustion chamber deposits can be removed with Mopar Combustion Chamber Conditioner p/n 04318001. Standard diagnostic procedures may help in identifying other potential causes of excessive knock.
Some gasoline marketers may advertise that their premium gasoline contains extra detergent additives. Under provisions of the Clean Air Act, ALL gasoline sold in the U.S. must contain effective deposit control additives. Nevertheless, if fuel injector or intake valve deposits are suspected of contributing to poor performance, occasional use of Mopar Fuel Injector Clean Up p/n 04549613 is a much less expensive way to maintain engine cleanliness than regular use of premium gasoline.
The attached charts (Figures 1 & 2) show the negative effects of high DI fuel as related to customer satisfaction. The charts cannot be displayed on this forum because of the format.
If fuel quality is suspected in causing a customers driveability concern, your zone technical office may be able to provide direction on procedures for fuel sample analysis.
Ron
00 PB SLT QC 4X2 5.9 46RE 3.92 LSD
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djrums
Unregistered
4/18/2001
17:46:11
| RE: Pinging Dakota
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks Ron. That was a good article about gas. I did manage to get the numbers of the TSB's from alldata.com but not the content of each TSB.If I can't find it on the web I suppose Ill bring the numbers to my Dealer and they can look them up.
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Chan
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/14/2001
12:33:55
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
I have a '01 V6 Dakota. I have a light pinging problem on the flats. On the hills it is pretty heavy. I don't know if any of the suggestions will work because it wasn't pinging when I first bought the truck. It started @ about 1800 miles.
Could something have developed during those break-in miles? I'm going to try the spark plug/thermostat replacement, but am I wasting my time? I haven't read that this has cured the problem.
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lando981
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/14/2001
16:30:04
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Yeah, I have a pinging prob I think!! When My engine is cool it does not do it, but when it gets hot and I let it run on up to about 2800 to 3500 rpm's it really makes a rattle. I still have the factory thermostat in it and was wondering if it would help to replace it with the ole robertshaw 180. One more thing I bought my dakota used and the guy that I bought it from always run 93 in it and I was wondering should I put like 87 or 89 or keep running 93, also Iwondering if my belly pan may have got busted by the constant use of 93????? Thanks for any help!!
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lando981
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/14/2001
16:31:31
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Yeah, I have a pinging prob I think!! When My engine is cool it does not do it, but when it gets hot and I let it run on up to about 2800 to 3500 rpm's it really makes a rattle. I still have the factory thermostat in it and was wondering if it would help to replace it with the ole robertshaw 180. One more thing I bought my dakota used and the guy that I bought it from always run 93 in it and I was wondering should I put like 87 or 89 or keep running 93, also Iwondering if my belly pan may have got busted by the constant use of 93????? Thanks for any help!!
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lando981
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/14/2001
16:33:33
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Yeah, I have a pinging prob I think!! When My engine is cool it does not do it, but when it gets hot and I let it run on up to about 2800 to 3500 rpm's it really makes a rattle. I still have the factory thermostat in it and was wondering if it would help to replace it with the ole robertshaw 180. One more thing I bought my dakota used and the guy that I bought it from always run 93 in it and I was wondering should I put like 87 or 89 or keep running 93, also Iwondering if my belly pan may have got busted by the constant use of 93????? Thanks for any help!!
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lando981
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/14/2001
16:35:54
| RE: Pinging Dakota
IP: Logged
Message:
Sorry!!! I hate when it does that!!
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eddie_orlando
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/14/2001
20:14:43
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
is 93 octane bad for all engines, 2.5 all the way up to 4.7, 5.9, etc.? I have always used 93 in my 95 2.5 because i felt there was an advantage to it. somebody help me
eddie_orlando
Mage44852@cs.com
p.s. don't laugh, my 2.5 can beat plenty of 3.9's and larger!! I know I'm an idiot but I like my truck and have spent too much money on the little 4 banger!
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Wayne
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/14/2001
20:51:05
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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No Eddie, you are not an idiot. You are a hot rodder with 1/2 of a V-8. I mean what If the V-10 guys though that people like me with V-8s were wasting our time and money.
If you guys had trouble understanding what RonW wrote on 4/16 and 4/18 then just use the smallest number octane rating that you can use without causing pinging. Higher ain't better. Lando - 93 will not bust your belly pan. It is LESS volatile and less likely to do damage. Eddie - You will get your best performance out of the lowest octane that you can run without pinging. It burns faster and easier.
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Bernd
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/15/2001
00:29:57
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Eddie...how's she running now? (After Marty did the initial work on it.)
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eddie_orlando
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/15/2001
00:50:36
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
Bernd, long time no talk!! Man, it's running real good now. Marty is a genius with Dodges. Go figure, he used to work for NASA so I expect nothing less than the best :)! I went over to Cocoa last Monday and spent the day at his shop. First he ported the throttle body since he found many uneeded and constricting lips and flanges. Then we (I should say he) tackled the factory intake. I thought I had gotten rid of some of the bottlenecking, but no sir Marty cut off the old filter box and cleaned up the rest of the tubing all the way to the throttle body. It was very inefficient. My previous drop in K&N was useless looking back at it. We went to Discount Auto Parts and bought a huge K&N filter about 9 inches in length with a 3 5/8 inch connector. It's made for a factory replacement on a 96-98 Chevy/GMC Vortec V-8 so that tells you the size!! Lastly we (he) put in Bosch +4's and Bosch wires along with a Conrad brass cap and rotor set. Next I'm going back for some roller rockers he has around from Mopar and hopefully someday a hood from his friends at AAR Fiberglass right down the road. Good hearing from ya Bernd! Great site you got going, I put up a posting but no response in the 2.5 section yet :(
Ed Henry
Mage44852@cs.com
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Frank Likert
Unregistered
JOIN HERE
5/15/2001
16:40:49
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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Message:
My 4.7 pinged a little bit last weekend, but I wasn't too surprised. To all those that doubted the little motor that could, I pulled my 3000# mustang and my ~1000# trailer last weekend and it did great. Pulled just as good as my Dad's Ram with a 360, got a little bit better mileage, and it was ALOT more comfy. I had a little bit of detonation when hard accell on 87 octane. That was the final test that made my decision that I love this truck.
My $.02
Frank Likert
'00 QC 2wd 4.7 auto 3.55LS HD service group
'90 Mustang LX 5.0 5spd NMRA Factory Stock (been 8.30s 1/8th)
http://90lx.5liter.com
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Andy
Dodge Dakota
6/27/2001
00:41:31
| Solved the pinging prob. on my 01 Dak
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Yeah-hhhhh, I solved the pinging problem, finally!
I hope that the following info will be useful to those, like me, who are annoyed by the pinging problem.
Already tried to following, reduced the pinging in some fashion, but could not eliminate it:
- 180 deg thermostat
- Cooler spark plug - Autolite 3923
- Premium gas
But this one addition definitely ***SOLVED*** the *($%^* pinging problem:
- MSD 8680 Adjustable Timing Control.
Basically, the MSD8680 allows you to retard the timing, up to 15 degrees. After installing it, I found that the pinging can be eliminated by retarding by 2-3 degrees, with no noticable loss in power. This makes sense, since by the time your timing is so far advanced that the engine starts knocking, instead of additional power, you now have detonation!
I got my MSD8680 from Summitracing.com, for about $99 w/ shipping.
Of course, as the weather gets cooler, you can advance the timing back up, since pinging is more likely to occur during warm weather.
Now, if we can only convince Chrysler that their PCM program sucks (not knowing when to retard timing to avoid fuel detonation), the problem will truly be solved. :)
/Andy
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fast80cc
Dodge Dakota
6/27/2001
14:06:51
| RE: Pinging Dakota
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I've got a Neon ACR (DOHC) and can attest to the advantages of running 92 in it. The Neon has a distributorless ignition (like the 4.7L) and several timing curves in the PCM (tried to muck with these in my foolish days). Mopar came out with a "race" PCM for the ACR (design for SCCA club racing). That required 92 or better (actually a mixture of 108 race gas plus 92 pump worked best). I have a brand new 3.9L Dak (1 wk old). Yeah, it pings a little, mostly my fault when not starting properly in 1st. I remember CC's nice DI thesis from my Neon AutoX days. I don't care WHAT they say, going with 92 pump will allow you to advance timing a few degrees. That will get you some? power increase. I'm def. planning on the 180 t-stat, plug swap. I'm not sure how the Jet chip works (does it retard timing)? Bernd says the ICON allows fully programmable timing (a little pricey though). Sounds like the MSD is a much better deal??? The PCM code is actually quite complex with multiple timing curves, both long- and short-term learning algorithms, etc. All in an effort to balance EPA emissions and driveability. Don't have enough experience with the Dak 3.9 yet, but the Neon took several days to modify the long-term algorithm when switching from one octane to another. There was a NOTICEABLE diff. in performance when going to 92. I'm hoping the same will happen with the 3.9 and an ICON/Jet chip/MSD? Gotta fight electronics with more electronics! Sounds like we're outta luck with a stock PCM though (think I read that we can't just change dist. timing or it changes the injector timing as well).
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djrums
Dodge Dakota
7/02/2001
12:36:27
| RE: Pinging Dakota
IP: Logged
Message:
I tried the 89 octane which took care of the ping most of the time. But accelerating uphill on the highway it still pings. I have now installed an inbox K+N filter and use 91 Octane Shell gas. The truck runs amazing it never pings and my gas mileage has gone from 16 to 17 mpg to 19.5 to 20.5 mpg with 75 percent of my driving in the city.
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