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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
11:48:23
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 Subject: 360 Turbo
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Message:
I've been hearing stuff on V8 Turbos.
Since I owned some Turbos cars before, I know that they can produce some mean power!
I was wondering how much boost a Magnum 360 Current Model can handle.
Do the Current Magnums run cast cranks? What type of rods? How thick or the Cylinder walls? Can they be bored over 0.060 or only up to 0.040?
How many bolts does a magnum head have 10?
8.9:1CR?
I know Buick uses 14 bolts for only 3 cylinders Vs 10 bolts for 4 cylinders.
I'm thinking nothing more than 10 LB of boost.
Hey Duner if your reading this. How much boost do you run for your 12 second Dak.
Does any know how far a 4.7L can be bored or how many head bolts? I know compression is higher 9.3:1, thus less boost can be had, but they do have aluminum heads. Also I don't think the 4.7L have Forged cranks? Do the new HO 4.7L have Forged Cranks? But aren't the HO very high CR? 9.7:1?
I think turbo's have much more potential for increasing power than a Supercharger. And much more reliable! Semi-Trucks, Rally Cars and much more use turbos. I don't see them running Superchargers.
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1Fine5.9
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
11:57:09
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
A friend of mine has a R/T blown and hes gettin rid of the blower strokin it to 408 then building a twin turbo kit for it, he says 15-18lbs max of boost, 2 T51's
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
12:27:21
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Why Stroke it? Doesn't that reduce the thickness of the walls? He might blow the walls right out with 15-18lbs of boost.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
 
12/20/2001
13:12:48
| RE: 360 Turbo
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"I think turbo's have much more potential for increasing power than a Supercharger. And much more reliable! Semi-Trucks, Rally Cars and much more use turbos. I don't see them running Superchargers"
what about funnycars and dragsters?
Eric
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conig
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
13:32:51
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
many prostreet and lower classes of drag cars use turbo's.
however in top fuel turbos were outlawed? I remember reading why just can't remember
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NeedForSpeed
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
13:34:15
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Yeah the dragsters and funny cars are supercharged nitro...U don't see them using turbo. Can't argue w/ 6,000HP haha.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
14:35:08
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
I guess you got me there. Maybe it's due to lag time Vs power output. Maybe if the drag strips where 1 miles instead of 1/4. Turbo's are used in the salt flat races! 200-300mph speed.
I still think Turbos can create more HP than Supercharges.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
14:42:44
| RE: 360 Turbo
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It's not like dragsters and funny cars run for long periods of time Vs motors with Turbo's.
Turbo's run on exhaust, unlike belt driven Supercharger that puts a drain on the motor.
Hey, it's just my opinion.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/20/2001
14:44:21
| RE: 360 Turbo
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each has its pro's and con's.
my friend has a 86 T-type with about 500hp. that thing HAULS ASS after the turbo is spooled.
i would like to see what a turbo does to a dakota. that would turn heads with a BOV.
Eric
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Brian024.7
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
15:12:00
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
we've already seen it...
Duner and his 12.7 sec 1/4 mile dakota
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/20/2001
15:14:52
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
oh yea. hehehe. ok well i wonder how a 318 or 360 will do against dunner's 4.7?
Eric
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NeedForSpeed
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
15:20:18
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Strap a twin turbo on an R/T and his don't have a chance. I think you could put twin turbos on a stock R/T w/o moding anything and the engine could handle it put it on anything less than a 318 and U'd probably have to do all sorts of mods to compesate for all that power. Of course for best performance you'd want better exhaust, TB, intake stuff like that.
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andrew
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
15:50:51
| RE: 360 Turbo
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This may be a dumb question since I dont know awhole lot about supers and turbos but is it possible to have a turbocharger, supercharger, and nos all on one engine at the same time?
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/20/2001
16:12:23
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
it would be possible if your engine compartment is big enough, but its a wast of itme and money. just get one or the other. and add nos if you race a lot
Eric
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NeedForSpeed
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
16:23:05
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
Well if the turbos are like anthony says, that runs off the exhaust...and the superchargers run off the air intake, then it seems to me that you can have both the supercharger and turbo and of course you can have NOS w/ either the SC or turbo so I don't see why you can't combine all 3. Just make sure you install an ejection seat incase your truck explodes haha.
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Brian024.7
Dodge Dakota
12/20/2001
16:35:07
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
its been done, someone also made a lightning with 2 superchargers (different types), there is also an Integra Type R that has a supercharger and turbo. But it is a waste of money. Its really just to be different. Small shots of nitrous help ALOT because it greatly cools the intake air temperature, you can even spray nitrous on your intercooler to help cool the air. Just watch out, a 25 shot of nitrous on a car with a roots type supercharger could add 50 or more HP, make sure the bottom end can handle it.
The 2 most crucial things are:
Right amount of fuel
Correct Ignition Timing
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lando981
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
00:47:21
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
now I think they make turbos that are water cooled rather than exhaust. Or something realated to water something can't remember. Plus I know for a fact if you are going to get a turbo don't get two just get one, one really good one strong turo is better than two!!!!!! This is true oin a supra may or not be true on a dak.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
12/21/2001
01:39:13
| RE: 360 Turbo
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"I know for a fact if you are going to get a turbo don't get two just get one, one really good one strong turo is better than two!!!!!! This is true oin a supra may or not be true on a dak."
NOT REALLY. if you have one big turbo, you can run a lot of boost, but it takes a long time to boost. if you have two smaller turbo's, you can run a lot of boost and since they are smaller they can boost faster.
on a V8 dakota it would be better to run 2 turbo's because a 8 cylender engine can produce the exhaust nessesary to spin 2 turbo's.
Eric
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bjlindsey
Gen III
12/21/2001
05:05:39
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
I just want all around wheel spinning torque/power w/o the turbo lag. Any ideas for me? 2001 5.9L QC auto 3.92LSD. Thanks all
'01 QC 4x4 5.9L 3.92 LSD K&N FIPK Clone Truck Tec bed cover
www.FreeGasForYou.com
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CW
GenIII
12/21/2001
09:06:11
|  RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
Kenne bell supercharger makes a ton of torque.
2001 4.7 5sp 3.92 LSD sport plus
Ported throttle body, IAT adjuster, flowmaster cat back, adjusted TPS from .51v to .76v, 4" cold air intake
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
09:21:50
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
bjlindsey,
Your Truck should be able to do wheel spinning torque as is. Just replacing your TB will do the job. You'll go from a sqeak to an all out hell breaking loose. That K&N will sure be used after you replace your TB. Just make sure you don't have your 4 wheel drive engaged.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
11:10:23
| Turbo "Lag"?
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Message:
The argument over single or twin turbos has been going on forever..... kinda like the 4.7 vs 5.9 thing. It's all just a matter of airflow vs efficiency vs packaging. If you have the room... a twin turbo system will look cooler. But then again it costs more and I'm more into speed vs looks anyways.
Single turbo with 10 lbs of boost here.....
All this talk about turbo "lag" cracks me up! I think people think of "lag" as being a dead spot in the power band. That's not the case. The turbo doesn't remove any of the existing torque or power.... there is no "dead" spot! Once you know how the system reacts.... it's more like Nitrous. Turbo "lag" is one of those enduring myths that got started when turbos first came out. They were used on small displacement, carbureted engines that had the timing retarded to save parts. They did indeed have a perceptible "lag" - because they didn't make any power until the turbo spooled up. Modern computer controlled, fuel injected engines are a totally different animal!
My truck was making 322 ft lbs of torque BEFORE I added the turbo. That torque hasn't gone anywhere. I still get every bit of that torque to use..... and then it gets multiplied when the turbo hits! If you nail the throttle in 1st gear at 1000 rpm, it makes full boost by the time it gets to 2000 rpm. If you are above 2500 rpm when you hit the throttle - the full power of boost is there instantaneously!
With a supercharger - the boost builds with rpms. That provides a very linear "feel" to the ramp up of power and boost. You might not be building much boost at 2000 rpm but nobody calls it "lag".... it just isn't at "full" boost yet. Then with higher rpms you are at "full" boost. On my buddies supercharged truck.... he doesn't get to "full" boost until he's above 5000 rpms. People don't refer to it as a "lag" because the power didn't hit all at once.
With Nitrous - the power hits as soon as you hit the button or when the engine makes enough rpm to trigger the window switch. You don't refer to it as "lag" because you think of it as not getting to the right rpm to trigger yet. The power is instant.... but runs out and needs refilling. Would an empty Nos bottle be referred to as "lag"?
With the turbo - the boost doesn't build until the engine sees a load. Then it hits all at once. You don't have to wait for additional rpms or watch the boost gauge to see where it tops out at. With a turbo the second the boost gauge needle moves past zero- it goes to full boost! Since the hit of power is so noticable.... the time before it hits referred to as "lag". I prefer to think of it as "anticipation"! hehehe
You can produce John Force style rolling burnouts by only going about 15 mph and having the trans in 3rd..... you lean into the throttle and when the boost comes up the tires instantly roast. The turbo produces ALL TORQUE. The higher the gear you are in - the harder it puts you back into the seat. Once you know when and how the turbo works.... you can use it effectively.
Anyone interested in installing a turbo system should read the book "Maximum Boost".
It explains plainly what's necessary for a good running system and why it's necessary.
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bjlindsey
Gen III
12/21/2001
11:45:55
| RE: 360 Turbo
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks duner
'01 QC 4x4 5.9L 3.92 LSD K&N FIPK Clone Truck Tec bed cover
www.FreeGasForYou.com
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jason
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
12:13:05
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
god has spoken
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Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
12:56:14
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
After driving a '99 Cummins Ram w/ 6 speed and a 24" diesel Ryder truck (International, 5 speed auto) there IS a time constant between throttle on to power. And there is some hystresis when you're on the boost. If you are approaching a hill it's best to goose the throttle to get the boost on and it'll stay there, if you don't you may not have enough power to avoid a downshift.
They do make mad power yes, and turbos work best in situations when you're going to be at higher revs and/or you need power after you're rolling.
A Dakota is a vehicle w/ pleanty of torque to get a good launch (almost too much) but could really benefit from power after launch. A turbo would be excellent.
Diesels typically have a turbo because the nature of the diesel is so torquey and so low end that the lack of boost at low RPMs isn't a big deal but the nice addition at the top is very much welcomed.
A big con of a turbo from an OEM standpoint is that it takes heat away from the cats making the time it takes to have them work be a bit longer, a problem in California. The aftermarket doesn't have this problem, especially in states that allow removal of the cats (big fine+possible jail time in Cal.)
In summary, a turbo will not make you LOSE power anywhere, but where it adds power might not be consistant over time (within 2-3 seconds of applying throttle)
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Brian024.7
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
13:12:58
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
i'd just like to say,
Duner, dyno your truck man
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mannyzamora
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
14:07:23
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
hay Duner your explaination could not have been better said. The book you refered to, maximum boost, already have read it, "3times". When I was working for rebello racing we built this 240z that we had to build a turbo for from scratch. intake, pluming, fuel system exaust, etc,. Just to cut to the chase, when the car was done and reletivly bug free, we took it out for a test drive for about 100miles or so. What I can say was holly ---- was that thing scary fast. We used a t04 garret with a modified inlet, set the boost inicialy low to not hurt anything. when driving it was only at about 9-11 lbs. Even with that little the thing would excellarate really hard and brake traction like nothing. I left that company before we got a chance to put it on a chassis dyno. when I went back for visit thay showed me the dyno read out, 483 hp at 6200rpm, at the rear wheels! they had the boost set at what they said 18lbs, the turbo was had a maximum lbs of 22, so who knows how much moore power that thing could of made.
I have had a couple of the front drive turbo mopars in the past as trans, and they are fun. even with lite mods they did make some decent power. I would really like to put a turbo on my dak,in the spring. I have considered a SC, but after driving vehicles with both, and working on both, I am definitly going with a turbo. I dont know if you have read some of my comments to some of our fellow dak owners, but when I see something that I feel I can be of help with, I speek. I roadrace my dak, belive it or not. So far I have competed in three open track events and so far the biggest handicap I am expeirencing is a lack of power. I can still hold my own against all the F products and the rice boys and girls, but I want to be at a really big advantage when I go back out this season. have allready made a few improvements in the susp dept and brakes. All I need from you is a little bit of advise on the details,i;e fuel, exht, and controls. I tried to get on that web add you posted at one time but no luck. if you can send me some info via e-mail I would highly, highly appriciated. thanks manny Z..
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
14:12:28
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Demon - "...within 2-3 seconds of applying throttle"? Maybe for some big old diesel or something.... I fully realize you are talking about a big Ryder diesel truck..... no comparison to anything relating to performance. Those diesel engines have an entirely different A/R rating on the turbos..... and typically make TONS of boost, but at low rpms compared to a typical gasoline engine.
Like I said, there is no wait with mine. Since I shift 4 times on a run down the track..... (yes, I use 5th now) how much time do you think I could be waiting for it? Even .5 of a second wait would mean that I've waited for 2 seconds total... and that's not happening. Either that or I have a 10 second truck and I don't know it! hahaha (yeah right - don't I wish!)
Brian - I'm hoping to get some dyno time very soon. Since I'm "Married With Children" - Christmas time means that money is scarce for playtime with my truck! I'll be back to "playing" with it very soon.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
14:17:28
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Manny - My email addy is: cartel5@home.com
Drop me a line and I'll spill my guts! hehehe
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Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
14:41:19
| RE: 360 Turbo
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I understand that my experiences are with a diesel, and but low RPMs I mean in the 700-1200 range and high being above 2000 (the Ram redlines at 3250, the Ryder at 2500). Once the boost is there it typically stays high enough to last a reasonable shift, if launched at 1500 RPM the boost wouldn't leave until the throttle is closed. And I do understand that the turbos in diesels are typically much larger and have much more rotational inertia, so 2-3 seconds at 12-1500RPM in a diesel might be 0.2-0.3 at 2000 in a gas (again, depending on the turbo used).
I'm not saying that you're 100% wrong, the time might as well be inperceptible when used in gas engines, especially while racing (where the boost may always be at near full), I admit that I haven't had the chance to experience a gas forced air vehicle yet. But both diesels were a similar experience. (launching a Diesel in 4th is kinda neat)
I appologize if my input isn't within the scope of the discussion.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
14:55:18
| Wide "Scope" is better!
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Demon- No apology necessary! I don't know squat about diesel engines... and every word I hear is new information. I had no real idea what the actual rpm range was for those engines - I just knew they didn't rev very high.
I was just trying to make sure everybody knew that there was indeed a difference between the two engine types and also the reason for it. Besides most good discussions cover a very wide "scope". You know.... wider is better!
I guess the reason there's no perceptible wait time is because the turbo is still spun-up from the previous gear. Since the gear changes occur at between 5000 and 6000 rpms, I'm sure the turbo is really humming! I have no idea how many rpms the turbo is actually spinning at... but it certainly won't lose too much inertia between shifts.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
15:32:41
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
Don't forget, stick shifts help reduce lag times. You can take off at any RPM you like unlike an Automatic.
I think Turbos usually run around 14K+ per second.
If I had to setup a twin Turbo system. One turbo would be small the other a larger one. Kind of like shifting gears. Maybe they should invent a adjusting compressor fin that rotates pitch.
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Brian024.7
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
15:35:24
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
autos can have high stall torque converters too though, so that takes away the advantage of having a stick with a turbo. Most of the 8-10 second supra's are auto
I still like my stick though
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
15:40:53
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
Turbos keep there spool or rotational speed by the amount of Pressure in the system, the wastage engages and disengages the compressor wheel. Too bad there isn't more features and sensors added like a Turbo temperature reading, RPM speeds, and efficientcy readings.
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Anthony G
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
15:48:39
| RE: 360 Turbo
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While I'm at it. Why doesn't someone invent a fuel injector that atomizes the fuel into a mist rather than squirting it into the cylinder? That should create greater explosion thus creating more power? Maybe it would be very difficult not to get pre-detonation?
Brian024.7
I thought about the converter theory but, that would mean having a high stall all the time. Not good for street use.
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Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
15:58:04
| RE: 360 Turbo
IP: Logged
Message:
If the injectors are clean and working properly, it does mist it.
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
19:14:56
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
would SC's be better for autos because of lack of getting to higher RPM's?
can u explain a
high stall torque converter to me?
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bjlindsey
Gen III
12/21/2001
20:19:58
| RE: 360 Turbo
IP: Logged
Message:
Who has turbos, who has supers and who likes what and why??? Thanks
'01 QC 4x4 5.9L 3.92 LSD K&N FIPK Clone Truck Tec bed cover
www.FreeGasForYou.com
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Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
12/21/2001
20:20:52
| RE: 360 Turbo
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Message:
A torque converter is basically two fans facing eachother, one blows the liquid across the other allowing a coupling that can take one being not moving without wearing out a clutch.(massively oversimplified btw). The stall speed is the maximum difference in RPM that the two sides can be spinning. In a vehicle with an 1,800 RPM stall, if you brake torque it the tach should go upto about 1800 RPM, with a 3000 RPM stall that RPM would read 3000. The higher stall allows the engine to be reved higher on launches. The main downside is the same as the upside: it lets it slip more. When racing the slip isn't much of a concern, but in normal driving you'll most likely lose some MPG and give it more gas to get up hills and such (why high stall converters are not good for towing).
Most people still claim that 3000 RPM converters are streetable, and I haven't witnessed anything to the contrary, but 1500RPM converters are common in truck applications. And the stall speed isn't a set in stone speed, it will vary by application.
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dakkid
Dodge Dakota
12/23/2001
02:12:21
| RE: 360 Turbo
IP: Logged
Message:
thanx demon
now about SC's
better for auto because they work at lower rpms better or am i mistaken?
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2THEXTRM
GenIII
12/23/2001
12:31:54
| RE: 360 Turbo
IP: Logged
Message:
Sorry, not the particular topic of this thread, but, any 4.7L bolt-on turbo kits available?
Flowmaster stainless cat back, Air Raid CAD and homemade TB connect, Splitfire Plugs, 33x11.50-16's
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