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GraphiteDak
GenIII
 
1/26/2004
09:54:53
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 Subject: RE: 180 thermostat
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I asked what it was in another post. I was told it was "...code P0031 is HO2S Heater Control Circuit Low (Bank 1 Sensor1)"
I will play with it tonight after work.
I may just let the dealer fix it under warranty if it's more than just a mod problem.
I am allready thinking of switching back some mods that I haven't proved worthy. Such as the IAT resistor mod. I think it just re adjusts itself via O2 sensor output anyway so that mod is probably doing not a damn thing. The only thing I would do is move it from the aluminum intake to the intake tube for the older engines. Mine came in the intake tube from factory.
I will LEAVE my electric fan control in because I like to keep my clutch fan OFF. I may switch my 160 t-stat back up to 180. Havn;t proved any more gains there, but I haven;t LOST any mileage at all. I think the clutch fan removal gave me 1 more MPG tho.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2004
13:56:15
| RE: 180 thermostat
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I'm thinking about installing a higher flow electric fan on my R/T and remove the clutch fan on it. I hear all the 4.7 owners doing it with no problems. Has anyone with an R/T done this? The electric fan on this thing doesn't look as big as the one on the 4.7.
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2004
18:27:46
|  RE: 180 thermostat
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Hey RT if you pull your clutch fan it`s highly recommended you install a 180 t-stat...lol.
(JUST KIDDING-couldn`t resist)
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/26/2004
21:19:00
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Hahaha, very funny. Seriously, has anyone pulled the clutch fan off their R/T? It should be OK, I would think. My buddy has a 95 5.2L with a supercharger and headers and he removed the clutch fan on his and installed an aftermarket electric fan with no problems. He's obviously producing a lot of under hood heat with the charger and the headers. I was hoping that some one would say they did it without replacing the stock electric fan. The stock electric fan looks pretty wimpy on this thing.
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Tnjones
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2004
17:27:28
| RE: 180 thermostat
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The temp/emissions thing has to do with getting the catalyst in your converters up to operating temperature. That's why DC uses a 190 stat. They have to meet EPA emission standards both for the vehicle and their fleet. That means they have to cut the emissions on their other vehicles in order to get away with letting the Viper run more wide open (or intruduce a hybrid that runs ridiculously clean and then sell enough to account for a significant portion of their fleet). Why do you think you have a power robbing catalytic converter on your truck at all? Because DC hates us? No, because the EPA makes them do it.
Many of the performance mods are just shifting from the compromise position DC took to the performance side that we prefer. Why not put a big loping cam in every V8? Some people like vacuum powered accesories, a rock steady idle and fuel efficiency, that's why. Just because that's the way DC did it, definately does not make it the best answer for extremes like max performance, or max efficiency, or max life, or max anything else except SALES.
Lower engine temp=more power for the same reason colder intake air=more power and colder fuel=more power (ie:cold can in your fuel line). You want the fuel air mixture to start as cold as possible on the way in and end up as hot as possible on the way out because those conditions also equal max expansion in the cylinder and therefore max power per unit of fuel consumed (aka efficiency)when all other conditions are equal. Colder air is also more dense=contains more oxygen in the same volume which means you can burn more fuel per cycle and produce more power.
There are too many people posting here that want to be THE EXPERT. None of us are (especially not me)and unless YOU'VE tried it, all you are stating is an opinion. How about we stop trying to prove the other guy wrong and help each other figure out what's right? Isn't that the whole point of these boards? Or maybe it's just a place for people to masturbate their ego in public?
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/29/2004
20:29:59
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Dude, go take your medication or something.....
We all know what the emissions equipment is for and how they work. We all know that cooler air/fuel mixtures created more HP.
With the 180 stat the PCM automaticaly richens the fuel mixture. The only time a richer fuel mixture makes more HP is when you have an engine that is prone to detonation. The rich (12:1) mixture will cure detonation most of the time. The leaner an engine can run without running hot or detonating the more HP it will make. Trust me. I went to school for this sh!t, OK. How do you think Ryan Newman was able to out run everybody on any given day and get the best gas mileage at the same time? His team figured out how to make their engine run LEAN without running hot or detonation. By putting in a 180 or 160 stat your fixing one problem (detonation) by creating another problem.
Also, it's not the coldest running engine that makes the most HP. It is the temperature difference between the incoming air and the exit air that determines HP. The engine that has the greatest difference in temperature between the incoming and exiting air makes the most HP. If you are running an extremely rich fuel mixture your exhaust temperatures will go down while your incoming air temp will stay about the same. Simply put, you loose HP. It's called BTU's British Thermal Unit. It is a number that rates the amount of heat something puts out and it plugs directly into the HP equation. The lower the BTU output the lower the HP. If you want the equation, I'll go dig it out of my reference material. A prime example everyone that has ever owned a diesel can relate to is that if a diesel gets too cold it won't even start. Why, it can't generate enough heat. They have to preheat the engine just so it will start. Ask any truck driver how their trucks pull when the engine is cold vs. when it's hot. It is simple thermodynamics.
Since water boils at 212, it is important that the engine run long enough at a high enough temperature to promote evaporation. The 195 is a compromise between what will promote evaporation without making the engine run too hot. A cold running engine running fuel mixtures less than 14.7:1 will carbon-up. That does not promote performance. It hurts it. If you actually see performance gains by installing a 180 or 160 stat it is a good indicator that you have detonation problems. Either the timing is too high or the spark plug is too hot. Because the new engines no longer have exhaust cross/overs in them and the water inlet has been relocated, there is no difference in the incoming air/fuel temperature between a 195 stat or a 160 stat. Especially if you have a cold air induction kit that draws air from the outside instead of under the hood. By lowering the engine temp you lower the exhaust temp. Cooler exhaust temps mean less HP. NASCAR used to monitor exhaust temps as a cheap way of checking how much compression an engine had. They new if you had more heat you were making more HP. Teams would richen their fuel mixtures to lower the exhaust temperature so that NASCAR wouldn't suspect that they were running too high of compression. The problem was they made less HP when they increased the fuel mixture to offset the higher temperatures of the engine and they burned more fuel. Not only did they make less HP but they had to make more pit stops as a result. Bottom line is, the higher you can make your exhaust temperature without causing detonation while keeping the incoming air temp constant, the more HP you make. Installing a 180 or a 160 stat will not accomplish this.
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Trukguy
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2004
02:08:38
| RE: 180 thermostat
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That was a nice long story. Too bad only some of it is correct. Do you actually believe that an engine that's running at 195 degrees is making more power than one that's at 180 degrees? Does that mean that one running 205 degrees is going to be faster yet? These aren't diesels or NASCAR engines. These are computer controlled. Among other things you seem to completely overlook the computer's ignition timing reaction to 180 instead of 195 degree water temp readings and the relationship of the O2 sensors and fuel trim. Please explain to us how the incoming air/fuel temps aren't influenced by the additional operating temps.
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Tnjones
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2004
11:41:07
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Went to school huh? Personally I used to run a Maverick with a 351 Winsor in NHRA Sportsman class from 88-91. At that Time Memphis motorsports park was running 1/8 mile brackets on Sat night. I ran 7.5's consistantly enough to pay for each season's racing (parts and fluids as well as entry fees) and the off season rebuild. One year I even earned enough points to get invited to the nationals in Atlanta.
You think guys push their cars up to the waterbox because they want their motors as hot as possible when they make their run? I guess that's the purpose of having NO thermostat, a hood scoop and a cold can too. Gotta keep that motor hot!
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2004
17:58:25
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Dude, these aren't race engines with 14:1 compression running 110oct. These are street engines with 9:1 compression and cat-convertors. You can't break the laws of physics. If you have 2 identicle engines and both are at the same operating temperature, the one with the higher exhaust temperature will be making the most HP. Because the engines we are talking about on this Forum are in Dodge Dakotas and not Ford Maverics you can't lower the temperature of the engine without the PCM automatically richening the fuel mixture. When you richen the fuel mixture you lower your exhaust temperature. There is only one condition the 180 stat might fix that would result in more HP on Dodge Dakota and that is DETONATION. If your engine has this problem then a cooler stat might help it. Most of the time the fix is temporary because the combustion chamber will carbon up when you run rich fuel mixtures. When the chambers carbon up your compression ratio goes up and then the engine starts detonating again.
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Trukguy
Dodge Dakota
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1/30/2004
19:07:55
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Did you ever stop to think that with a more dense air charge because of the lower operating temps that the egt numbers might actually be higher? It's called air/fuel ratio and timing.
Which part of this whole equation are you having trouble figuring out? There are three parts of the horsepower equation that are effected by higher operating temperatures that change how the computer responds.
Air - Fuel - Spark
A higher engine operating temp results in a hotter intake manifold and throttle body. That means that the intake air temperature is higher. Hot air is less dense. That means you are getting less air thru the engine.
The computer sees higher operating temperature and cuts the fuel back.
The computer sees higher operating temperature and retards the ignition timing.
Hmmm, the last I heard was that you INCREASED the amount of air put thru an engine to make more horsepower. You know, like with cams, intake, porting and superchargers? You follow that up with INCREASED fuel and you make more horsepower. You add more ignition timing and it all gets burned and makes more horsepower. You know, the kind of timing you spend big bucks to get flashed into the computer or by buying a Mopar Performance one?
When the computer sees higher operating temps it cuts back fuel and timing. Why? Because it's programmed to know that with that increased engine temp there will be a less dense air charge going thru it. It cuts back timing because it knows it will be closer to detonation due to the increased temps. More fuel is not a bad thing if you are getting more air also.
Higher operating temps = less air, less fuel and less timing = less horsepower.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/02/2004
01:08:57
| RE: 180 thermostat
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What part do you not understand? Your right. AIR-FUEL-Spark is all it is. There is just one problem. When you run cooler temperatures you need more spark advance. EVERYBODY on this forum talks about increasing spark advance to increase HP. The cooler the engine runs the harder it is to ignite the fuel. It's why your engine knocks when it's hot and it doesn't when it's cold. The hotter the engine runs the less spark advance you need to ignite the fuel. It works just like compression. More compression means less spark adavance. WHY? Because the more compression you have the more heat you generate. It's very simple. If you get your engine cold enough it won't even start. The oil companies put an additive in the gas during the winter months just so you can start you car. The more BTU's you produce for the same amount of fuel and air the more HP you create. BTU=HEAT. The temperature difference between the gas before and after combustion is what is used to determine the number of BTU's produced. By the same token, if you take a low compression engine and put 110oct raicing gas in it you will produce less HP because 110 octane is harder to ignite than 87oct. By putting racing gas in a low compression engine you have increased the need for more timing advance. Unfortunately, we can't control the timing adavance on these PCM-engines.You and I can alter anything on these engines, but we can't alter the TIMING. Unless you are a computer programmer that has exceptional hacking skills you are S.O.L. Unless you increase the ignition timing to offset for the lower operating temps you will LOOSE HP!!! Not to mention the fact that you will carbon up the combustion chambers with the richer fuel mixture. That's another arguement.
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Trukguy
Dodge Dakota
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2/02/2004
01:32:07
| RE: 180 thermostat
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Duhhhh.
That's exactly THE point. The ignition timing IS advanced for the lower operating temps so it DOESN'T LOSE HP! It's programmed that way. Why don't you quit arguing about it and spend your own dime and put your truck on a dyno. Make a pull with the truck cooled off and then make one with it hot. Then come back here and try and explain to us why there's such a difference in numbers. Wouldn't you like to know the REAL answer?
It doesn't matter much what you were supposedly taught in your mechanics school. The real life numbers and results will prove your books and instructors wrong.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/02/2004
19:22:33
| RE: 180 thermostat
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No dyno's, just time slips. The best thing I found to reduce detonation is gasoline with no ethanol or methanol in it. Both of these alcohols need about 9:1 air fuel mixture to burn properly. Some fuels have as much as 5% of this alcohol mixed in. 90% of all your pump gas has these alcohols in them today. All you are doing by installing the 180 stat is compensating for the 93oct your buying with the alcohol in it. You need about 13:1 air fuel with these Gasoline/Alcohol blends to keep them from detonating. The problem is you can't run more advance with these fuels. Alcohol ignites easier(has a lower flash point) than gasoline. Alcohol also has a lower BTU coefficient than gasoline. I have not done it in 10 years, but I did run a 180 stat. My truck was consistanly quicker on the average with the 180 stat, but it never beat my best time running a 195 stat. It took me a long time to figure out why. With the help of an intellegent instructor with a PHD, I went against the practice of running a 180 stat and I reinstalled the 195 stat. Then I found some good alcohol-free-gasoline and I matched my best time that I had ran before I installed the 180 stat. It all boils down to detonation. The more heat you can produce without detonating the more HP you make. If you you live in CA you have no choice but to run a cooler stat because it is the law out there to run gas that has at least a 5% blend of alcohol in it. Where I live, you can find stations with gasoline that has no alcohols.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
2/02/2004
21:07:52
| RE: 180 thermostat
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OK. Sorry to interupt the grudge match he he he...
J/K
Anyway after I swapped my 195 t-stat back in and was testing for leaks I crawled back under my truck and found the wires to the front O2 sensor burnt to the exhaust pipe. Not bad but just enough to short the signal.
I pulled the wires up and it's been fine ever since. So the code set in the PCM had NOTHING to do with the cold t-stat. And anyway mine always ran over 170 anyway with my electric fan setting.
I am not sure if I noticed any more power with the 160 t-stat. The truck seems about the same with the 195. In a few weeks I'll be making another trip to the Dunes near Yuma. Towing up the hills is my test. If it seems to be just as good with the 195 I'll let you know.
Now. On another note. With my carberated engines, I swore by using colder t-stats. but then again the water jacket HEATED the intake manifold! The temp of the water in my 4.7 has nothing to do with my incoming air temp. My intake is PLASTIC which is a good thing for power if you ask me.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/02/2004
22:32:04
| RE: 180 thermostat
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There will be a slight increase in the under hood temp, but it will be small. As long as you have a cold air intake it won't make any difference. My mom lives in Phoenix, AZ. I've never been able to find any alcohol-free gas out there. The 180 stat might not be a bad idea for your truck. Hell, it will be in the 90's there in another couple of weeks.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
2/03/2004
18:34:26
| RE: 180 thermostat
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I also have a 180 t-stat in my tool box.
What I did was install the 180 when I FINALLY was convinced that it would work in my 4.7
It does fit, but they are NOT the right t-stat. The OEM has an extension to sense temp deeper into the housing. After a week with the 180 t-stat I installed a 160 t-stat just to test it out. The temp stayed on the first line. My electric fan kept it around 170 degrees. The heater was still hot and after months of driving I had no problems.
When my check engine came on (and wouldn't reset) with the O2 error I put the stock t-stat back in because I thought I would let the dealer fix the truck under warranty.
Then just before I did I saw the wire from the O2 sensor touching the exhaust. OOPS!!!
So. It just isn't worth the bother to swap the t-stats again just yet. I'll be towing our family and Quads to the Dunes on Friday the 13th. (uh oh! Just now noticed that date!)
Anyway. If it still has the awesome pulling power I'll probably leave the 195 in there.
I still need to get under the hood and adjust my electric fan control up to 195 or something. It's still set between 170 and 175 so it just stays on continuously right now with the 195 t-stat. Wow. That's a 20 degrees difference in what it used to be set at.
Oh yeah. I just swapped the t-stat in my sisters '93 Maxima. It has a 170 degreee t-stat STOCK.
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steve sharp
Dodge Dakota
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2/04/2004
13:41:53
|  RE: 180 thermostat
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Graphite,I was the one who gave you the answer to the code question but just wanted to let you know that with the kenne bell s/c that I put on my 4.7L it came with the 160 therm. Too many code probs. Then went back to 195 stock and no codes but fan runs. No biggie. This is because of re-cal on computer. I also run HO cams 150 shot nitros and even playing with that and good race gas no problem with HP or engine knock or Temp. When I use it as daily driver I only use 91 oct that is good gas and still no problems. This is just info for anyone who cares not for pissing match purposes. Thank you.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
2/04/2004
23:16:26
| RE: 180 thermostat
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That's awesome. I think because our beloved 4.7 does not have the WATER JACKETS into the intake that is probably why the results are diff from old school engines like Mopar 318/360, FOrd 302, Chevy 350, etc etc all the popluar old school hot rods.
I still need to get under my hood, crack open my box to my home made electronic temp control and adjust it so it will cycle the fan.
Good thing I used a potentiometer in the circuit, so re calibrating it to the higher stat should be pretty easy.
I still need to draw up the schematics for that sucker. A few people have emailed me about that. My control works right off of the stock engine water temp sensor.
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R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
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2/07/2004
14:10:08
| RE: 180 thermostat
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I don't suppose anyone watched "TRUCKS" on Spike TV today? They explained quite clearly on the WYOTEC "Now You Know" 5 minute technical/educational clip that THE HOTTER THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER GASSES ARE THE MORE HP YOU MAKE and the cleaner and more efficient the engine runs. The WYOTEC Technician was refering to a DIESEL when he made that statement, but they imediately clarified that the same rules apply to GAS burning engines. If you don't believe me watch "TRUCKS" on "SPIKE TV" later today or Sunday morning. They usually air the same episode 3 times every weekend. Watch and learn. They even showed what damage could be done to the engine by running it too cold. Don't listen to me. See for yourself on "TRUCKS" on the only station for men, "SPIKE TV".
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Trukguy
Dodge Dakota
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2/07/2004
15:36:27
| RE: 180 thermostat
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STFU. You already said that your truck was consistently quicker with the 180 in there, except for that ONE time with the 195. What kind of logic is that? It generally goes quicker one way and you switch it back because of what again? Oh yeah, some guy with a PhD said it was better. Huh? You already proved it to yourself and now you don't believe it because some guy said it wasn't? We're all tired of listening to you try convince everyone that something you heard from somebody or saw on TV is gospel. Take your ideas and truck to the dyno and then convince yourself that the dyno charts are wrong because some retard on TV said it wasn't supposed to be that way. Better yet, why don't you go to www.dragtruk.com and email the quicker guys, you know, the ones that race and work on stuff and not watch TV, and ask them which thermostat they are running. While you're at it, try and convince them that they would make more HP with their trucks running at 200 degrees. Please post back the results because we all need a good laugh. How quick is your R/T? I only ask because judging by your replies you are probably way on the bottom of the quickest R/Ts list. It goes 15what? Maybe you should ask some of the other R/T guys what their speed secrets are. It's hard to explain real world results to somebody that only believes text book theories or morons on TV and has no experiences to back it up. Oh wait, you do have your own experiences and it was consistently quicker, but now you don't believe it. Why was that again? Oh yeah, you got some special gas and it went quicker that one time with a 195 in it? Have you ever heard about changing conditions at the track? Your truck won't run the exact same time every time you go to the track even if you never changed anything on it ever. If you watched NHRA today instead of TRUCKS, you might even get somebody on TV to explain it to you. I enjoy watching you try and explain about BTUs and temperature differences when you can't even comprehend that the air and fuel charge gets preheated more by the hotter intake manifold and heads and you end up with LESS temperature difference between incoming charge and exhausted gasses. The engine with the hottest EGT temps doesn't make the most HP on a gasoline engine. If that were the case then all you would have to do is run them lean and retard the timing. You'd have high EGTs without any power. The same holds true for high combustion chamber temps. Drain all the water out of the engine or pull the belt off the water pump. It might make some high temps but I doubt it will survive the severe detonation that follows. Detonation does not equal horsepower. You might even do a search for the phrase temperature reversion. The hotter your intake and heads are the more difficult it is for air to enter since it's expanding as it heats up, which works like a supercharger in reverse. Did they teach you anything about that in your autoshop class? I bet they didn't tell you not to piss into the wind in your autoshop class either did they. You try and use a bunch of textbook terms and phrases to make it look good when you don't even understand how it all works in theory or in actual practice. You're pissing into the wind on this one buddy, and it's running down your leg.
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