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Kowalski
GenIII
11/23/2007
08:23:15
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 Subject: RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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Well, I read 8 of the 45 pages in that thread, and what I saw was more controversy. Maybe the conclusive part is hidden in the bulk that I didn't read. Enough to seriously question if it is really still fully synthetic though. I wonder what the government standard is for making that claim; or if there is one ? Thanks for the link boB, but how did you decide the new version is "just as good" ? Is Aunt Jemimah's pancake syrup "just as good" as pure maple syrup ? I think I'll be looking elsewhere for a new oil, since it sounds like Mobil won't give a straight answer to a seemingly simple question.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
11/23/2007
12:13:21
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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I've been busy lately and not on the boards as much for the past few weeks.
Did they really run the Amsoil guy off of this forum?
If so, I guess everyone has their limits from the flamers. Anyway. This forum is still great for someone who wants to find some good information when they have a Dakota problem they are stumped on.
But the flamers who sit on here changing their screen names based on their alter-ego, sure can ruin the forum at times!
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
11/23/2007
14:21:58
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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>> Thanks for the link boB, but how did you decide the new version is "just as good" ? <<
Mostly by anectdotal evidence. They can still claim to be a synthetic oil because it meets the performance specs for a synthetic. So it appears to perform as well as the true synthetic PAO based oils of the past. In the lab, anyway.
In all the boards I read there's only been one issue with the new oil formulations, and that's with the Porsche racers.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2007
18:09:07
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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"M1 is a Group III. Not a group IV. From 15W-50 all the way down to 0W-20."
Here's what Amsoil has to say about Group III basestock.
Q: Are Group III basestocks synthetic?
A: Yes, they are synthetic. Group III base oils are highly processed oils and were classified as synthetic in 1999.That year, the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus ruled in a complaint by Mobil Oil Corp. against Castrol North America Inc. Castrol claimed its product, Syntec, was a synthetic oil even though it had used Group III base oils since 1997. The ruling by NAD said Castrol presented evidence that constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Syntec, a Group III based formulation, is synthetic motor oil.
On occasion Amsoil will also make changes in their formulas.
Q: AMSOIL will be using a different formula for its XL-7500 Motor Oils. Why did AMSOIL change the formula?
A: Our XL-7500 oils are the oils of choice in the retail oil change market, and primarily because of warranty concerns the customers in this market require API-certified oils. In order to obtain API SL/ILSAC GF-3 certification and still remain cost-competitive with the other oils sold at retail oil change outlets, we had to change to Group III basestocks. To obtain API certification with our top tier basestocks would have priced our Dealers out of the market.
Does changing the formula from group IV to group III make it any less "synthetic?" Amsoil says--NO!
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ahh
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2007
21:17:20
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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the Cat is out of the bag!
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food4 thought
Dodge Dakota
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11/24/2007
22:42:21
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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AMSOIL COULN'T GET API CERTIFIED BECAUSE IT
CAUSES PREMATURE CAT-CON FAILURES !!!
" Beware of the blank spot for the %zinc on Amsoil.
The facts are as follows:
1. Amsoil products, other than the XL-7500 line, cannot
be API certified because the level of ZDDP exceeds
the API limits which results in too much phosphorus.
This is not in dispute, Amsoil stated this. See:
"groups.google.com/groups?q=zdp+amsoil&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=3B02A3A8.185B25C7%40pinn.net"
2. The API limit on the amount of ZDDP was put in place
because the phosphorus in the ZDDP shortens the life
of the catalytic converter; the more ZDDP the shorter
the life of the catalytic converter.
"http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/additive.htm"
"http://www.mixoil.com/ge_info.htm" scroll down to "Antiwear-EP"
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Stan
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2007
08:59:34
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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old news from 2002.
Amsoil, RP and Redline reduced the amount
of ZDDP after studies showed that excess
ZDDP could damage catalitic converters.
RP switched to MOLY which is worse for the engine.
Amsoil and redline lowered the amount of ZDDP.
The REAL flaw was the material in the cats
and not necessarily the levels of ZDDP.
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ah huh
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
11/25/2007
11:48:42
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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really?
Gee but yet Royal Purple, Mobil 1
etc, etc are API certified
amsoil still isn't
gee wonder why ?????
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2007
12:18:57
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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>> Yes, they are synthetic. Group III base oils are highly processed oils and were classified as synthetic in 1999.That year, the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus ruled in a complaint by Mobil Oil Corp. against Castrol North America Inc. <<
What does that really mean? Read between the lines and decipher the c rap spewed by lawyers and advertising types.
Group III starts as a common dino oil.
It's heavily processed. But still a dyno oil.
It meets certain performance specs that allow it to be called a synthetic. It's still a common dyno oil.
To a normal person, synthetic means it's man made. It really is that simple. Group III is not man made. PAO is.
A true synthetic oil starts with a PAO base stock. There is no dead dino's in it. PAO is more expensive. That's why synthetic oils have always cost you more.
Dead dino's are cheaper. Cheaper to obtain, modify, and sell. So why are we paying PAO prices for dead dino? Lawyers, that's why.
Who on the market sells a pure synthetic? I believe it's only Redline, Royal Purple, and some Amsoil lines. But, they could be lying to us, too.
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yes
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2007
13:26:17
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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nice post .bob
Heres the thing that really gets my goat. The amsoil guy on here "steve" when someone mentioned M1, he jumped all over them. Mobil one is group3 and not a true Syn. oil. Really? But yet when amsoil uses it all of a sudden it's true Syn. oil!
I mean how comical is that?
and this latest line when amsoil has probelms damaging catcons
"The REAL flaw was the material in the cats"
ever notice how its allways some one elses fault when it comes to amsoil and not the oil?
Royal Purple and Mobil 1 are both API certified.
Amsoil could only manage to get one of their oil grades API certified, and then they had to work on that one awhile. Not to mention the oil they did get certified is group3 (just like Mobil 1)
but far higher priced.
The API certification important?
Use it in a motor thats under warranty,
when something breaks sorry to say, everyone will find out just how important that API sticker is ...
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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11/25/2007
21:07:38
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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"ever notice how its always some one elses fault when it comes to Amsoil and not the oil?"
Oh yeah, I know what your talking about...
I had the 545RFE tranny in my 03 Dak go out while running Amsoil Universal ATF, needle bearing failure in one of the planetaries. I sent an oil sample to BlackStone to see how the Amsoil ATF held up and they said it was oxidized, should have been replaced long ago and was missing boron, an essential additive in ATF+4. With this info, I sent Amsoil an oil sample, Blackstone's report and the failed part for warranty reimbursement.
What do you think happened? They ran the ATF sample through another lab (Oil Analyzers, Amsoil's go-to lab) and the ATF was reported as fine for continued use, warranty claim denied. Kind of odd the ATF was fine for continued use since there was 49K on the ATF (Amsoil states 50K as a minimum service interval), there was all sorts of fine suspended debris in the ATF and another independent lab stated the fluid had been overrun.
I'm sticking to ATF+4 and Dodge's recommended service interval from now on.
As for synthetic engine oil, .bob hit the nail on the head. I still use M1, but no longer pushing it past the max service interval recommended by the auto maker. After all, it's a easier to replace the oil than the engine, transmission, rear end, etc, etc.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
11/25/2007
21:18:56
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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"Edit to above post"
The missing additive in Amsoil Universal ATF was Barium, not Boron,,, my bad ;-)
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Forseti
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2007
00:15:03
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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In case you didnt know ....... Oil Analyzer's Incorporated IS AMSOIL >>>> THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE >>>>>
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mechanic
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2007
06:25:01
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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Forseti
I read that Amsoil sold their interests in Oil Analyzers a while back because of a perceived conflict of interest.
Oil Analyzers Inc is now fully independent so where is the beef?
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Simpleton
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2007
09:00:17
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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It is really simple.
Look for the letters PAO on the label or the box.
Like .bob said, PAO = Synthetic
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
11/26/2007
16:00:58
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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"Group III starts as a common dino oil.
It's heavily processed. But still a dyno oil.
It meets certain performance specs that allow it to be called a synthetic. It's still a common dyno oil. "
You say that it starts out as "common dino oil," then is "heavily processed" and some how it is "still common dino oil." How is that possible.
"To a normal person, synthetic means it's man made. It really is that simple. Group III is not man made. PAO is."
Last time I checked "man" has no been able to create something from nothing. Did god get a job at Amsoil?
It's more a question of whether motor oil is better made one way or another. Since Amsoil and others use both methods, they are either all making inferior products or both methods work.
All motor oils are refined from something and you would not put any of these ingredients directly into your engine.
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idiotdetector
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2007
20:50:52
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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mechanic = Stan = Shatto = complete liar & completely full of sh!t
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Dak Guy
Dodge Dakota
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11/26/2007
21:33:57
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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before one posts a lie he should be more careful
and please NOTE that using a non API certified oil
WILL VOID a warranty !!!!!!! Such as AMSOIL !
this stan fella is a complete liar and a total moron
"Royal Purple’s motor oils are API certified and will not void new vehicle warranties. "
http://www.royalpurple.com/motor-oil.html
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
11/27/2007
01:46:03
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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"In case you didnt know ....... Oil Analyzer's Incorporated IS AMSOIL >>>> THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE >>>>>"
Yup, I know Oil Analyzers and Amsoil are one in the same, it's the reason I stopped pursuing the warranty claim. Blackstone said it's bad ATF and Oil Analyzers (Amsoil's people) said it's good ATF. Wasn't worth my time pursuing the claim. Even if I won, I would have lost considering the time and money involved,,,
mechanic,
Here's the beef. Amsoil sent my ATF sample to Oil Analyzers, which has a business relationship with Amsoil, and from what I understand, used to be a division of Amsoil. Amsoil's "buddies" send back a good report on the ATF and saved Amsoil $2000 on a warranty claim, that's my take on the situation.
I've still got a quart of that "stuff" from the puked tranny sitting in the garage. I'd bet $100 it would come back as bad ATF if I sent it to a different lab. Chances are, if it looks bad, and smells bad, it's bad.
I'm not saying Amsoil is bad oil,,, if you follow the vehicle manufacturer's service intervals. However, Amsoil states that their Universal ATF has a minimum service life of 50,000 miles "under severe conditions", 14,000 miles longer than Dodge's service interval. And, Amsoil states that they will pay for repairs if their lubricants cause damage. Not in my case!
If you want to run Amsoil in a vehicle that's out of warranty, go for it, but follow the vehicles service guidelines. If you want to use Amsoil in a vehicle that's under warranty, you better think twice. I wouldn't want to have a blown engine or transmission filled with anything but what the MFG recommends, it might be an expensive lesson.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
11/28/2007
14:29:32
| RE: Oils, now many say Fully Synthetic...
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>> Last time I checked "man" has no been able to create something from nothing. Did god get a job at Amsoil? <<
By that logic, man never has and never will make anything. Because molecules and base elements already exist. Yeah, that makes sense.
You can argue semantics all day. The fact is, PAO is synthetic, dino oil is not. For most people that's fairly simple and easy to understand.
Are you a lawyer?
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