4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared - Dodge Dakota Forum

Subject: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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I'm re-posting this from another thread. I'm afraid it was difficult for anyone to read thru all 150 posts to find the info.

Here's the specs and best times for 5 different trucks - on the same track, on the same day, all racing each other. (4) R/Ts and (1) 4.7 5-speed. Track conditions were hot and slippery, air temp was hot with high humidity. There were 110 other trucks in attendance also (all R/Ts). Very many of them were WAY faster than these 5 selected. About 2/3 ofthe trucks were not. The quickest went 12.05 @ 116 mph in these miserable conditions. Mine was the only odd-ball (4.7). These R/Ts ranged from bone stockers to absolute monsters.

This comparison does away with the different track/altitude/temperature differences that show up between numbers posted on the net. Most everyone (including me) stated that they were running at least 3 tenths slower because of the conditions but..... They were all in the same place at the same time....an apples to apples comparison!

'99 Club Cab R/T
Mopar Cold Air, 4bbl M-1, Mopar Headers, Catco hi flo cat, 3 inch cat back, flowmaster 40 series, level ten shift kit, 180 stat, MSD 8.5s, Autolite 3923s, PCM, Nitto 275 50's, lakewood t-bars.
(15.3 @ 91 mph)

'99 Club Cab R/T
QuickD 52 mm TB QuickD cold air intake Mopar headers 3923 plugs catco cat 3" 5444 Spintech muffler Mopar PCM 27x10 Goodyear Eagle stock car slicks Caltrac traction bars Kenny Brown X-brace Taylor 8mm Spiro Pro wires Accell Cap and Rotor Hotchkis suspension ASP underdrive pulleys
(15.3 @ 89 mph)

'99 Regular Cab R/T
MoPar PCM, 4bbl M1 Intake Manifold, Airaid 'cold air' intake,180* Stat, Accel Brass cap and rotor, Autolite 3923's, Full Hotchkis kit, X-brace, Hoosier 26x10x15 slicks @17psi
(15.12 @ 90.34 mph)

'00 Club Cab 4.7 5-speed (me)
Custom PCM, 68mm TB, K&N Drop-In Filter w/stock Airbox, Mopar 3" Cat-Back, Flowmaster 70 Series, Spring clamps, Michelin 255x255x17s on R/T wheels @ 22 psi
(14.90 @ 91.4 mph)

'00, Club Cab, R/T F&B 52mm TB, Home Depot 3" PVC air intake w/ 7" filter, home made carbon fiber heat shield, MP Headers, 1.7 Crower roller rockers, MP PCM, 180 thermo, 3923s,Spintech w/ 3" pipe from cat back and stock tailpipe, full Hotchkis, RSA's @ 22 psi, SS rollpan.
(14.84 @ 93 mph)

I think the impressive lists of mods for these trucks listed should tell you that they weren't stockers and that they were there to race. My 4.7 doesn't have that impressive of a list of mods but the times speak for themselves. You 4.7 guys... don't go and get all crazy over this either. All these R/T guys are my friends. They were kind enough to allow me to join them on the track. I really miss my R/T with it's 5.9 and wish I had never gotten rid of it. I'm making do with my 4.7 for now.... and so far it's holding it's own quite well.

This is a sampling of 5 trucks with their respective mods and how they did against each other on this given day. They will all go faster with better conditions, but the point is how they compared with each other.

Anthony G
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
09:43:45

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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Sounds like the R/T's where having traction problems. If the R/T doesn't get a good takeoff it has no way of making up the time up with the mods listed.

Loose the 4bbl M-1 replace with a 2bbl and throw on a good F&B throttle body. I bet he would get 14's

'99 Club Cab R/T
Mopar Cold Air, 4bbl M-1, Mopar Headers, Catco hi flo cat, 3 inch cat back, flowmaster 40 series, level ten shift kit, 180 stat, MSD 8.5s, Autolite 3923s, PCM, Nitto 275 50's, lakewood t-bars.
(15.3 @ 91 mph)

Sounds like all tq no hp, get an M1 to replace some of that tq with hp.

'99 Club Cab R/T
QuickD 52 mm TB QuickD cold air intake Mopar headers 3923 plugs catco cat 3" 5444 Spintech muffler Mopar PCM 27x10 Goodyear Eagle stock car slicks Caltrac traction bars Kenny Brown X-brace Taylor 8mm Spiro Pro wires Accell Cap and Rotor Hotchkis suspension ASP underdrive pulleys
(15.3 @ 89 mph)

Yet again, 4bbl M1 is way too much, it needs a 2bbl with a good TB. Try heads, cams, and a few other mods before needed a 4bbl intake.

'99 Regular Cab R/T
MoPar PCM, 4bbl M1 Intake Manifold, Airaid 'cold air' intake,180* Stat, Accel Brass cap and rotor, Autolite 3923's, Full Hotchkis kit, X-brace, Hoosier 26x10x15 slicks @17psi
(15.12 @ 90.34 mph)

'00 Club Cab 4.7 5-speed (me)
Custom PCM, 68mm TB, K&N Drop-In Filter w/stock Airbox, Mopar 3" Cat-Back, Flowmaster 70 Series, Spring clamps, Michelin 255x255x17s on R/T wheels @ 22 psi
(14.90 @ 91.4 mph)

Looks like the Club Cab is doing fine.

'00, Club Cab, R/T F&B 52mm TB, Home Depot 3" PVC air intake w/ 7" filter, home made carbon fiber heat shield, MP Headers, 1.7 Crower roller rockers, MP PCM, 180 thermo, 3923s,Spintech w/ 3" pipe from cat back and stock tailpipe, full Hotchkis, RSA's @ 22 psi, SS rollpan.
(14.84 @ 93 mph)

I think 99's are slower than 00's from the start.

Just my 2cents.

Anthony G
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
10:04:15

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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I've driven a 4.7L engine, they are very nice. Now the 5.9L is not for everyone that's for sure, but it's sure is easy to work on! Either fixing it or modding it.

I'm just about ready to buy myself some first mods! R/T 2.02-1.6 heads, 2bbl M1 Intake, F&B TB and a K&N Cold Air system.

I do hope more people buy 4.7L, that just makes my truck more rare an harder to beat. :)

Praise Dodge for throwing a V8 into the Dakota!~
I'm just glad to have a RWD V8! I can't stand those I4 or V6's in trucks! What's next FWD trucks! Ack, 80% of cars these day's are FWD!

Duner
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
14:03:41

Traction? What's that?
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Hahahahaha

I'll bet if you got a chance to talk the owners of these trucks you might get an earful. :D

What exactly do you think the 2bbl M1 manifold is going to do for these guys? None of them is running a 4bbl TB. It's the manifold they are talking about. All of these trucks have run well into the 14s. It was hot and humid with a very slick track. Gee, did I fail to mention that the night before (with cooler temps) that a Gen II Lightning was running only 14.40s & 50s?

I'm guessing that you think there was something wrong with the 5.9 powered trucks I listed. Why? How fast should they have gone in those conditions? Should I have included the slower trucks? It was bad conditions. Some of the bone stock trucks were way slow. I saw some runs in the 16s with mid 80s for mph. That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with them.....it was HOT and SLIPPERY. How fast do you think your R/T would have gone?

Sounds like the R/Ts were having traction problems? Hahahaha, Of course they were! That's why I made sure and included 2 trucks with slicks. That didn't make them immune to the slick track, but it helped! And yes, my little 4.7 was having terrible traction problems also. As far as the part about not being able to make up the time.....that's all part of it. You need horsepower to make MPH. So which part of my mods (4.7) is it that makes you think I could make up the time? Just because the 4.7 starts out with a 15 hp deficit doesn't mean it stays that way. I would venture a guess that my 4.7 is making more hp than the trucks that were going slower MPH in the quarter. What do you think?

aggie97
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
18:10:32

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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Hey team, don't forget the 5.9's are backed by an automatic which alone eats 30-40hp. 5.9 auto against a 4.7 5 speed doesn't seem fair. your 15hp deficit becomes a 25 hp lead when it comes right down to it. I have had a 99 R/T and now a 2k QC 5.9 4x4 and I wish I could have gotten an 5 speed on both. I would love to see someone with the T56 in an R/T race a 4.7 5 speed and then lets look at the numbers. If we are going to do comparisons.....wouldn't it be great if both had manuals

Duner
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
18:28:11

Even on the Dyno
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Amen to that one!!

A 6-Speed in an R/T would be exactly what it should have come with from the factory!

In a couple of side-by-side dyno comparisons, the 4.7 5-speed and the 5.9 automatic of the R/T came out almost dead even....at least horsepower wise. I don't remember the exact numbers right now (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm off a little), but I thought the R/T made 210 hp and the 4.7 made 207 hp. Those probably aren't the exact numbers but I know they were within 3 hp of each other. I don't remember what the torque figures were. For right now, I'm thinking the 5-speed just about offsets the size difference between the two engines displacement wise. If the 5.9 had the same trans......it wouldn't be much of a contest.

Hopefully the long awaited 5.7 won't disappoint us. Then these 4.7 vs 5.9 arguments will be useless. Nobody will even bother to compare the 5.7 to either engine.... yeah right!

Jeffster
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
19:39:57

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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It's the huge weight difference that gives the 4.7 such quick track times compared to the R/T's on a mod for mod basis.

Yes the 5.9 is a more powerfull motor but married to an Auto with lots of cast it weighs several hundred pounds more. Throw the 300-400Lb the 4.7 is missing in the back of the truck and the R/T's 350lb of TQ would eat us up but however that's not how it is so the weight diff does count.

Hersbird
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
19:45:39

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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Hey duner what about the best of the pure stock trucks? The best, and only stock RC R/T ran a 15.272. There were a few more stock CC's but still a bunch ran about 15.5. Chas Hoffner's 2000 RC is only considered lightly modified and he ran a 14.472. I just was wondering why you picked these particular trucks. There were no stock RC R/T's running slower then the 15.27 (or faster for that matter.) If there were some RC's running slower they must have been heavily modified with something seriously wrong, cause the results list onlt 1 stock RC and 2 lightly modified RC's (a 14.958 and a 14.472) They must have all been CC's running in the 16's on this poor day.

Duner
Dodge Dakota

7/13/2001
20:57:56

Which Trucks?
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Jeffster, my truck weighs 4225 lbs with me in it. That's about 15 lbs difference. I sure wish it was 300-400 lbs worth of difference. I wish I could shed 300 lbs!

Hahahaha I was waiting for a post like Hersbirds.......

Hersbird, isn't it funny that with 115 trucks at the racetrack, there are only 20 trucks that entered their times in the database? Should I have just entered all 20? I picked these trucks from the database because I thought they were representative of what I saw running. ( I purposely went out of my way to not name names). Where did you get the info for Chas Hoffner's runs? I didn't see that in the database. Are you saying that there is something wrong with all of these trucks? I'm sure not. I don't need my butt kicked that bad! You are also looking at their "best" times posted (mine included! LOL). Lots of people ran some terrible times and most were able to improve on them thru the day. The track was greasy. It was very easy to get a bad timeslip. Hey, I ran a worst of a 15.58 with a terrible 60' time of 2.56. I saw a few people swapping slicks between trucks in an attempt to get ahold of the track. Anybody that was running slicks had a definate advantage. Does that count? You bet it does! And it helps your times pretty good too! I sure wish I could have scammed somebody out of their slicks for a run or two. I'm sure there was more than 1 stock RC in attendance, how fast did they go? I'm sure there was more than 2 lightly modified RC's too. How fast did they go? I stated in the beginning that very many of the trucks were WAY faster than these 5 selected. Who's trucks would you have used to compare mods? I don't have everybody's times, just the database and what I remember. Should I have just posted the stock R/T times versus my 4.7s times? I would have caught hell on that one for sure! At least I picked trucks that had mods!

Hersbird
Dodge Dakota

7/15/2001
00:32:48

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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True those are all the best times each tuck ran. Chas was listed on the R/T website as the lightly modified RC winner. I'm not sure what mods he has, do you? They seem to work well together whatever they are. Here is the list for the fastest at the meet:
http://63.168.42.125/2001meet/Racing%20Winners%202001.htm
some mods work well together, some do not. These are the guys who got it together.

Duner
Dodge Dakota

7/15/2001
00:53:46

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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Thanks Hersbird for posting that web address. At least now everybody can see what the break-downs were for each class. Too bad those don't include the actual mods each guy had. Especially since like you say, if they were the fastest they must have something going. Also note that if the 3 fastest stock club-cabs were all right at 15.50, and that was their quickest times. I don't know what mods Chas had, but I would be suprised if he didn't have slicks. I wish I had some! hehehe

Duner
Dodge Dakota

7/18/2001
14:37:52

Dyno Numbers from my 4.7
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OK, I just got back from a dyno session. I wanted to see where I stood so far. I actually made 7 pulls with changes between each one, but obviously I'm only liking the one with the highest numbers.

I'll get it scanned today and then post the url to wherever I put the scan.

My best results were: 233.1 hp with 313.0 ft-lbs of torque.

I'm not sure what kind of number to use for driveline loss, but I'll bet I'm getting more than the stock 235!

If I figure a 16% driveline loss.....that get's me to the 270 hp of the supposed 4.7HO.

That's actually a little better than I expected them to be, so I'm very happy with it, so far......

'00 Club Cab 4.7 5-speed 3.92 sg rearend
Custom PCM, 68mm TB (stock '01 4.7), K&N Drop-In Filter w/stock Airbox, Mopar 3" Cat-Back, Flowmaster 70 Series, Spring clamps, Michelin 255x255x17s on R/T wheels @ 22 psi
Best of 14.63@93.3 w/2.178 60' time
233.1 hp, 313.0 ft-lbs tq

Wes
Gen III

7/18/2001
20:19:02

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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How does a 5-speed dyno compare to an auto dyno? I know you lose power in the auto trans, but do you lose any in a 5-speed as well? About what percent do you lose in each trans?

Duner
Dodge Dakota

7/18/2001
20:43:11

Auto vs 5-speed Driveline Loss
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I've done some figuring since I posted about the dyno runs earlier. After checking other comparative dyno runs, I think I came up with a pretty close number to use for driveline loss. The normally recognized driveline loss number is 20%. I think that's probably pretty accurate for an automatic trans. I think the 5-speed only experiences about a 15% driveline loss.

[url]http://members.home.net/cartel5/duner/Duner47Dyno.JPG[/url]

Figuring from a 15% loss (5-speed): 233.1 and 313 ft-lbs would equal 275 hp and 368 ft-lbs at the flywheel.

Theoretically, with an automatic trans and a flywheel rating of the same 275 hp and 368 ft-lbs, the automatic would have posted 220 hp and 294 ft-lbs at the rear wheels with the same engine.

Somebody else on another web-site posted that my NV-3500 trans experiences an 18% loss.
If that's the case then WOO HOO!! that would mean a flywheel number like: 284 hp and 382 ft-lbs of torque! I'm not sure I believe it......but it sure sounds good! hehehe

Jeffster
Dodge Dakota

7/18/2001
21:26:08

RE: 4.7 & 5.9 Mods Compared
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That's 18% with that transmission. Add a little more for the drive shaft and rear end.

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