| From | Message |
Dave M.
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/30/2005
13:33:28
|
 Subject: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
I read in the FAQ section of various 'superchip' websites et al, that a lot of these chips are designed to run on a higher octane level of gasoline as compared to 87 regular octane. I don't have a chip by the way. Completely stock. Now because gas is so expensive here in Canada, I run 87 octane in my 3.9 Dakota, which is the usual slug although it runs fine. The sites also indicate that sometimes they're programmed at the factory to run on that. My question is this; Would using a higher octane, say 89-91, increase the performance of the vehicle, or am I just flushing money down the toilet because the vehicle is designed to run on 87?
Thanks...
|
DanK
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/30/2005
13:57:27
|  RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Mostly just wasting your money if you're still stock.
Aftermarket chip sets may require different octane because they alter, among other things, the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing. This requires higher octane to resist knock and ping inherent with those changes.
|
N56629
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/30/2005
22:30:52
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Some vehicles designed to run on 87 octane respond very well to 89 or 90. I've had some vehicles get up to 10% better milage. Sometimes as little as three parts 87 and one part 90 will make a noticable difference.
|
Lurkin
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
08:57:19
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Just a data point, I've been running 93 in my 02 4.7 since late December (hopelessly waiting for a working SuperChips tuner...). IMHO it has made no noticeable performance or milage difference.
|
N56629
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
11:11:51
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Lurkin, why not try 89 or 90 then?
You didn't say no difference between what. I'm asking because it makes no sense to jump from 87 to 93.
|
Robert
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
11:54:08
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
I've ran the 93 octanein umy 2004 Dakota (stock) and got 10 mpg and with the recommended 87 octane I get roughly 17 mpg.
|
OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
12:14:12
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
What ya need to understand is why it prevents spark knock > the answer is simple > the higher the octane the slower the burn rate > knowing this it becomes obvious the lower the octane you can run the better off you are > think on it
|
N56629
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
13:20:56
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
"I've ran the 93 octanein umy 2004 Dakota (stock) and got 10 mpg and with the recommended 87 octane I get roughly 17 mpg."
Obviously, your Dak is unique. I've run 100LL (not recommended) with noting any significant change in my mpg.
|
Lurkin
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
15:53:43
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
I normally ran 87. As I said, I have been waiting for the tuner to arrive in a functional state so that I can run the 91 Octane Performance program
|
TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
16:39:23
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Lurkin,
Still no SC's? Maybe thery're having trouble with the AWD, or something similiar. I dunno.
|
hybrid
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
17:52:47
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
"What ya need to understand is why it prevents spark knock > the answer is simple > the higher the octane the slower the burn rate > knowing this it becomes obvious the lower the octane you can run the better off you are > think on it"
Bingo. It has the same effect a retarding your timing. The last time I checked, you want more timing advance if your looking to make more power, not retard. Anybody who claims to gain hp, or mpg by running a higher octane fuel is full of crap. If you truely knew anything about octane and it's effect on the motor you wouldn't be making that claim. maybe you need to redo the test that you performed to get your results.
I run 95-96 octane because I have too, hopefully Ill be able to drop down to 92-93 octane when I go back for a re-tune of my motor.
|
N56629
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2005
22:30:14
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
" Anybody who claims to gain hp, or mpg by running a higher octane fuel is full of crap."
Anyone that claims that every vehicle "designed" to run on 87 octane automatically gets its best hp and mpg at 87 octane is retarded. Your theory is sound, but your reality is not.
|
Lurkin
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/01/2005
09:10:23
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Todd, no, they were screwing with me after the first return. Are you keeping yours?
It took almost 3 weeks from the time they received it for the "Tuner requires update", until it got back to me. Then it threw a "Tuner requires emulation tests" error, which is a QA check that should have been done before they returned it to me. ...so it went back again.
I also found out that the 3 week delay on the first return was due to them "losing" my tuner for awhile.
I have now turned into the "pain in the ass customer" who calls/emails daily for a status update. Supposedly it's been overnighted late yesterday, or today. But I haven't made my bitchy call for the day as yet :-)
By the way, I was very nice the first 3 times I called them during the first return.
|
hybrid
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/01/2005
11:54:47
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
"Anyone that claims that every vehicle "designed" to run on 87 octane automatically gets its best hp and mpg at 87 octane is retarded"
I never stated every vehicle.
Not to belittle your knowledge but a STOCK vehicle designed and tuned for one grade of fuel should run it's best at that grade. I doubt an automaker is going to tune the motor for 89 octane and then have people run 87 octane. Octane DOESN'T add hp.
You always want to run the lowest octane possible.
Maybe I don't understand octane, explain it to me, help me understand how a slower burning fuel will increase power on a stock motor.
Please explain to me how your hypothesis is correct and mine is wrong.
Maybe i'm choosing the wrong octane for my car, maybe 96 octane isn't enough. Maybe I should step up to 100 octane....why stop there i'll just run 110 from the pump.
Please explain Octane to me,I really need to know so I can go waste more money on fuel that I don't need.
|
N56629
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/01/2005
13:33:30
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
"Please explain to me how your hypothesis is correct and mine is wrong."
Based on what I have said, what do you think my "hypothesis" is?
I believe you are the only person here that brought up the subject of horse power. I suggested that there is nothing wrong with trying different octanes and coming to your own conclusion.
I have on car that consistantly gets 2-3 mpg more on 89 or 90 octane even though it is rated for 87. Are you saying that I'm lying or too dumb to calculate my mpg?
Just because a car is rated to run on 87 octane doesn't mean it is at its peak performance. If the manufacture did everything perfect, why do we go around modifying everything under the sun?
Some times you may only need one point to get a noticible difference, but unfortunately they don't sell gas by the point. If you want to tell people that it's stupid to run a higher octane than necessary, I agree, but to suggest that it will never make a difference is just rediculous.
|
AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
2/01/2005
14:34:12
|  Higher octane vs. factory programming? --- Amsoil
IP: Logged
Message:
It’s been my observation that if an engine does not require high-octane fuel, it will run cleaner and better on the fuel it was designed for.
Octane rating is a measure of the fuel's resistance to pre-ignition. High-octane is specified by manufacturers when the engine requires it. High compression, high temps, or turbo engines will do better with high octane due to its slower burn rate.
Basically, the numbers you see at the pumps only indicate the anti-knock index of the fuel. It is measured using RON + MON and the divided by 2 (R+M)/2. In short, RON (Research Octane Number) measures the fuel's anti-knock index simulating light load, typical street, normal driving conditions. MON (Motor Octane Number) measures the fuel's anti-knock index simulating high-speed, high load conditions.
They used to post the RON and MON octane numbers in small print on the Sunoco pumps but I haven't noticed this lately.
Run what your owners mauual specifies. Put the high-octane in an engine designed for 87 and you have incomplete combustion ... and a waste of 20 cents per gallon.
__________________________________________________
You can Request a FREE Amsoil Catalog by clicking below.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
|
hybrid
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/01/2005
16:32:50
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
AmsoilSponsor, Thank you.
N56629, I am not calling you dumb or stuipid, Your HYPOTHESIS that i'm refering to is the point that you claim to get better gas mileage by increasing octane. Do you actually understand octane and what it is? Like I said before, please explain to me your understanding of octane. I'm really curious to know if your understanding differs from actual facts. I don't claim to know everything about octane, but being that I mix my own fuel and have had to basically come up with an octane level that works best for my car i understand it a little bit. When your pushing your motor as far as I'm pushing mine (i've doubled the hp of my STOCK motor, so 100% increase in power) you kind of have to understand a little bit about octane.
Explain to me how you get better fuel economy from a less combustable fuel? Not only does higher octane help prevent pinging it also resists ignition more then it's lower octane counterpart. Now if higher octane was more combustable I could see your point. Once again I'm calling you stupid or dumb.
So once again PLEASE (i'm asking nicely) explain to me your understanding of octane and what effects it has on a motor.
|
gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/01/2005
17:58:30
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Some vehicles rated for 87 octane will see improvements with a modest octane increase since these vehicles are on the edge with 87 octane. It might run fine when it rolls off the lot, but as the engine "carbons up" the octane requirement will creep up a bit due to a modest increase in compression ratio. Also, even new engines may be tuned to the ragged edge of tolerance for 87 octane. There's detonation going on even though it can't be heard. Bumping up the octane even a couple points cleans up the detonation, thus, the engine becomes more efficient. Also, these engines are tuned in standard conditions. Put an 87 octane-rated engine in conditions that are 20-30 degrees hotter than standard, or running 90-100% humidity, octane requirements automatically go up. It may still be okay, lightly loaded. These same engines do fine at 60% humidity and 70 degrees, but will suffer if the "safe" parameters are pushed too far in the real world. Now, in the lab, with identical conditions, 87 and 89 octane will run pretty much the same. As engine load increases, and air temp and humidity go up, the 87octane-fueled engine will suffer before the one with 89. Throw 93 octane in there, and either engine will show a modest loss in power and efficiency. Running 93 is a total waste unless mods are installed to take advantage of it.
|
hybrid
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/01/2005
18:27:05
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Ok, cabon build-up shouldn't raise the compression enough to require a higher octane. Granted if the motor is tuned on the edge of one octane rating then I could see that, but I doubt that car manufactures tune their motor to the limit like that.
Also there is a cheaper method of getting around the carbon build-up, it's called seafoam, or use a spray bottle to mist water into the intake while the engine is running (about 1,500 -2,000 rpm). The water acts as a "steam cleaner' for then engine. I've been doing it for years on my car. I generally do it at the begining of race season when I do the initial tune-up.
You do make valid points, but I don't think that they apply to most run-of the mill motors. maybe on a high compression race tuned motor like the one found in the viper, corvette, etc. But for your average dodge p/u or ford caravan, the tune isn't agressive enough and one the edge.
most cars these days are built to last 100k miles, if they were tuned so that they were on the verge of detonation I think the ringlands would give long before 100k esp on some of these vehicles that are modified (intake, ehaust,cam) and tow heavy loads (yes your about load increasing the demand on the motor)...
An engine is going to make the most power when it's on the verge/edge of detonation (slight controlled detonation in some cases). If you bump the actan from say 87 -92 then the motor isn't on the verge of detonation anymore. Like I stated before, raising octane is like retarding your timing, it delay the combustion by resisting.
|
N56629
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/02/2005
06:57:38
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
Hybrid, try Gasoline FAQs.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/
6.14
"If the octane is just sufficient, the engine
management system will move settings to a less optimal position, and the
only major penalty will be increased costs due to poor fuel economy."
6.16 What happens if I use the wrong octane fuel?
"If you use a fuel with an octane rating below the requirement of the engine,
the management system may move the engine settings into an area of less
efficient combustion, resulting in reduced power and reduced fuel economy.
You will be losing both money and driveability. If you use a fuel with an
octane rating higher than what the engine can use, you are just wasting
money by paying for octane that you can not utilise."
Just because your engine doesn't audibly ping doesn't mean that it is operating at peak efficiency. Even new the factory engine may or may not be operating at peak efficiency. The manufacturer has every interest in rating an engine to run on 87 octane, especially for those that are budget minded yet want high performance. Just because your engine management system can compensate for pinging doesn't mean that all is well.
|
hybrid
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/02/2005
09:23:29
| RE: Higher octane vs. factory programming?
IP: Logged
Message:
ok, who's to say that your engine isn't tuned for omptimum performance at 87 octane?
All that tells me is that If I own a car (lets say an integra typ-r I know it recomends 91 octane) that requires 91 octane and I run 87 octane the performance will be degraded. I know that....
What you posted say NOTHING about running a higher octane then what the engine calls for. Your did it backwards. We both understand that running to low of octane will effect the performance. That doesn't mean running to high of octane will increase performance.
Run what your engine requires, anything more or less will effect performance and fuel economy in a negative way.
|
| | P 1 Next Page>> |
